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Old 03-22-2016, 08:46 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,986 posts, read 27,287,306 times
Reputation: 9009

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy View Post
I would think this hypothetical evidence of HRT the person could keep at home and if someone freaked out (called the police) they could demonstrate that as evidence.

Your words are well and fine but I think you should talk to other side of the problem.

Why do we segregate?

Why do women not want to use the bathroom/change with men?

Finally, what makes a man?

You can sorta discuss ambiguities about what makes a gender but these women segregate because of SOMETHING, and typically, it is, what's in your pants.

So instead of talking about transgender needs you need to address what are the expectations of women. It seems obvious to me we don't segregate on gender identity but some mix of sexual orientation and gender expression. Obviously sex politics makes previously bright lines more blurred but I don't think a woman would make a distinction between a 200 lb male on jeans or a 200 lb male sex gender female in a dress.

I think it's very obvious there isn't a distinction between a pre-op MTF lesbian and a regular guy, from the dimension of bathroom segregation. Their gender identity really has no bearing on why we segregate the sexes.

Until they get on HRT a trans person is no different than their pre-trans identity. They have simply affirmed their status as trans gender. It's incumbent on us to identify a new pattern of lifestyle for these times and it seems clear people still like gender segregation and so, to me, doing something like requiring them to be on HRT seems like a sensible and reasonable goalpost to justify bathroom switching.

I'm not bothered by using the restroom with trans folk but I would be as opposed to my GF/Daughter/Wife bathroom/changing with a non HRT mtf lesbian as I would another man...because on the dimension of the criteria I care about they are indistinguishable from a man.

And I understand trans folks do this and everything is fine but I'm sure many men would bathroom/change with women and it would be fine.

It's really about whats the rationale for gender segregation and you know this is the south historically we are a little more uptight about the sexes, and why don't trans folks have some sort of obligation to the public to preserve social norms.

***
Crossing bathrooms based on gender identity fails to capture that transgender folks are transitioning from one gender to another. I'm simply pointing out if that's the threshold then generally you would allow folks to cross over whom are really more like men than women. Setting a threshold on something like HRT would let the public know this person has reached a point in their transitioning process where they really do need to switch over.
There is rarely anything going on in the public area outside of the stalls in a ladies room. There is no female version of a urinal.

I'd be willing to bet that I've been in the ladies room with trans people. How did I figure it out? Slightly different mannerisms, very jittery, & couldn't get out of there fast enough. It never bothered me. In fact it didn't dawn on me until later, each time.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
10,401 posts, read 19,431,310 times
Reputation: 11284
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
OK, who really cares about this at all. It is a non-issue. Ever been to Starbucks. Everyone uses the same bathroom. Been to a college lately. This is an issue that riles up older conservative people. Young people could care less.
So I hope you'll write to your legislator about this and remind them.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
10,401 posts, read 19,431,310 times
Reputation: 11284
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy View Post
I would think this hypothetical evidence of HRT the person could keep at home and if someone freaked out (called the police) they could demonstrate that as evidence.

Your words are well and fine but I think you should talk to other side of the problem.

Why do we segregate?

Why do women not want to use the bathroom/change with men?

Finally, what makes a man?

You can sorta discuss ambiguities about what makes a gender but these women segregate because of SOMETHING, and typically, it is, what's in your pants.

So instead of talking about transgender needs you need to address what are the expectations of women. It seems obvious to me we don't segregate on gender identity but some mix of sexual orientation and gender expression. Obviously sex politics makes previously bright lines more blurred but I don't think a woman would make a distinction between a 200 lb male on jeans or a 200 lb male sex gender female in a dress.

I think it's very obvious there isn't a distinction between a pre-op MTF lesbian and a regular guy, from the dimension of bathroom segregation. Their gender identity really has no bearing on why we segregate the sexes.

Until they get on HRT a trans person is no different than their pre-trans identity. They have simply affirmed their status as trans gender. It's incumbent on us to identify a new pattern of lifestyle for these times and it seems clear people still like gender segregation and so, to me, doing something like requiring them to be on HRT seems like a sensible and reasonable goalpost to justify bathroom switching.

I'm not bothered by using the restroom with trans folk but I would be as opposed to my GF/Daughter/Wife bathroom/changing with a non HRT mtf lesbian as I would another man...because on the dimension of the criteria I care about they are indistinguishable from a man.

And I understand trans folks do this and everything is fine but I'm sure many men would bathroom/change with women and it would be fine.

It's really about whats the rationale for gender segregation and you know this is the south historically we are a little more uptight about the sexes, and why don't trans folks have some sort of obligation to the public to preserve social norms.

***
Crossing bathrooms based on gender identity fails to capture that transgender folks are transitioning from one gender to another. I'm simply pointing out if that's the threshold then generally you would allow folks to cross over whom are really more like men than women. Setting a threshold on something like HRT would let the public know this person has reached a point in their transitioning process where they really do need to switch over.
I think you are misinformed about some things, but I'm not arguing with you about every point because the real issue is not even this "bathroom bill", but the fact that it is a small portion of a larger bill that was passed by a CITY and yet now the STATE wants to come in and void not just the "bathroom" part, not just the bill itself, but they intend to make it so that NO CITY can pass nondiscrimination laws addressing LGBT people, even without "bathroom clauses" or whatever.

That actually is the scariest thing about this. Where is the "smaller government" when taxpayers are paying $42K a day for this ridiculous session? How is it "less government intervention" when the big govt state overrides what a local ordinance affirmed. That's everything Republicans supposedly stand for, no?
If this bill bothers you and you aren't in Charlotte, what's your concern? BTW, numerous other states and cities have similar bills and there has not been ONE case of molestation by someone pretending to be transgender in a bathroom. Please cite a case if you can find one.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Danville, VA
4,632 posts, read 3,041,226 times
Reputation: 2918
Not only is the General Assembly attempting to stop Charlotte's ordinance, but they're wanting to block all local governments from following Charlotte's footsteps.

NC set to ban local discrimination protections :: WRAL.com
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Charlotte NC
1,012 posts, read 1,185,413 times
Reputation: 612
Charlotte should fight this crap. Makes no sense how much the government meddles in Charlottes affairs. Need to take this to the supreme Court or something. Either that or break away from NC to SC. Let's see how much funds the State can take from Charlotte then. I don't see why this hasn't been considered yet honestly. Nikki Haley would love to have Charlotte.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:09 AM
 
Location: Salisbury,NC
10,597 posts, read 4,421,156 times
Reputation: 4679
Its happening now because the State GOP is worried they are going to lose big time in November.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, CSA
299 posts, read 195,193 times
Reputation: 270
Two points while I enjoy my pub lunch.
The NC Republicans are not 'small government' they are big spenders. Second point. Interesting how one of the biggest supporters in Charlotte of the ordinance is a convicted sex offender.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Ayrsley
4,714 posts, read 8,480,078 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trump2016 View Post
Interesting how one of the biggest supporters in Charlotte of the ordinance is a convicted sex offender.
He was a youth minister at the time - which makes it surprising that he was convicted to begin with.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Concord, NC
1,210 posts, read 1,941,277 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyKayak View Post
Charlotte should had least attempted with city own buildings versus forcing commercial business to comply.
As a libertarian, I agree with the statement above. The Charlotte government should have passed this for government owned buildings only. Let independent businesses decide how they want to run their own restrooms.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, CSA
299 posts, read 195,193 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tober138 View Post
He was a youth minister at the time - which makes it surprising that he was convicted to begin with.

Convicted of 'a lewd act with a child' Champion of the Charlotte ordinance. Never reported on WRAL. Cheers!
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