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What are thoughts on why these two cities/metros, which are only about 40 minutes from each other, are developing so differently??
The Harrisburg Metro seems to continue to be stuck in the past, with a poor vision for its planned development and economic future, little to no cohesive development and overall is kind of just walking along. Most of its new built development looks lack luster (minus a few projects by Charter homes).
The disparity is due to demographics and the industrial vs agrarian nature of both metros.
Harrisburg and its surrounding towns were industrial port towns. The industry left and the working class with their decaying row homes and rusting infrastructure remained. The only reason the Harrisburg metro has a larger economy is due to the State and Hershey inc/med center spillover.
Harrisburg and its surrounding towns were industrial port towns. The industry left and the working class with their decaying row homes and rusting infrastructure remained. The only reason the Harrisburg metro has a larger economy is due to the State and Hershey inc/med center spillover.
Harrisburg was never a 'port city'. That sentence informs me you are not informed on the history of the region.
The Susquehanna River never was a navigable, port or industrial river. It is too shallow. From May - September, it is not unusual if you can actually walk across it entirely.
It is actually one of the reasons why Harrisburg is one of the few old cities dating back from the 1700s in America with a beautiful Riverfront that is fully intact with no major highways or industries along its length.
Because the river was never able to be used for industry.
Harrisburg always was a center of Law, State Government and Small Industry.
Again, Harrisburg has always exceeded Lancaster in terms of economy and wealth, and it is still the wealthier metro with the more robust economy today between the two.
Within the past ten years though Lancaster has seen more revitalization within its core.
Harrisburg has seen positive growth, but at a smaller scale.
This is simply a way to measure the progress over the past decade to twenty years.
The points you bring up are not really relevant or accurate.
I should know better given that I drove trucks in the area quite a bit. I always considered them to more or less be joined in some way.
Then again, where I am, Tyler and Longview are about as close and similarly sized, but don’t share much.
There's active talk of a Harrisburg-Lancaster regional rail service. Actually, this IMO is something SEPTA should express interest in operating under contract, much as it operates regional rail service in northern New Castle County under contract to the Delaware Department of Transportation/DART First State. Doing so, IMO, would bolster the case it seeks to make that it is actually a key contributor to Pennsylvania's prosperity (even without it, it is because it operates in the Southeast, which is the state's economically strongest region, but most Pennsylvanians living outside the Southeast don't see things that way).
Even though they're not one single conurbation now, I do believe that Harrisburg/Lancaster/York will grow towards one another. Harrisburg and Lancaster will become a single metropolitan region first, then York will add itself a little later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12
To be fair, it's a Nordstrom Rack and West Elm outlet. To me, the fact that Lancaster punches above its weight in retail is unsurprising. It's a huge tourist mecca for the east coast. As long as people have been visiting Lancaster, the outlets have been around, and people love to go shopping tax-free. So it makes sense upscale chains would dip their toes in the market there.
Wegmans, on the other hand, went to Harrisburg first. Whole Foods picked Lancaster. I guess we'll have to see where Trader Joes lands, though there is a strong rumor one is going to be built on the west shore.
I'm not sure how many educated professionals care for upscale shopping? Maybe they do, but after all KOP is just a short drive away from both metros for anyone who wants lots of that.
Harrisburg, unfortunately, didn't (and doesn't) preserve its historical architecture as much as Lancaster because the state government destroyed so much for its expansion and Harrisburg suffered from significant population loss. Neither of those things happened to Lancaster so it's starting off on a stronger baseline when it comes to its urban fabric.
Lancaster now has both a Whole Foods and a Wegmans, and they are located both near each other and near the Park City Mall. Does Harrisburg have a Whole Foods yet?
(BTW, Lancaster City's northwest quarter is where you will find both Franklin & Marshall College and the cxity's toniest residential districts, which spill over into next-door Lancaster Township. I suspect that's why all of these upscale retail options are located where they are, and this area is indeed away from the touristy part of Lancaster County. If I'm not mistaken, the main road through this area is called Harrisburg Pike.)
Some posters, I believe including you, have pointed out that Harrisburg today has fewer inhabitants than it once did. I do think that goes a long way towards explaining the diverging fortunes of Harrisburg and Lancaster: Lancaster hasn't emptied out at all. I think that fact also explains why I say that, like Wilmington, Harrisburg looks bigger than it is — it once was bigger than it is now.
The Susquehanna riverfront at Harrisburg, IMO, is one of that city's biggest assets. No other urban riverfront in the state is as lovely, the Schuylkill through Fairmount Park in Philadelphia perhaps the lone exception. And State Street between Front Street and the state Capitol is also one of the most beautiful residential streets in the state, and it may be the one part of Harrisburg whose historic character pretty much survives intact. (Judging from what I read here about the lack of an active preservation community in H'burg, that may be a happy accident.)
But — also like Wilmington — when the office workers go home, downtown Harrisburg goes comatose. I do remember one writer in PGN referring to "Harrisburg's catatonic nightlife" in an article I read soon after moving here in 1983, and while it appears to me that things have improved since then, they sure haven't improved much. Downtown Lancaster, OTOH, remains vibrant after the workday ends.
I think that city-county cooperation does help explain the difference, along with the fact that Lancaster is located near the center of its county and doesn't have to deal with any other county in planning for metropolitan growth or development. But I also note that Lancaster City is as liberal as Lancaster County is conservative, and I don't think Harrisburg is quite as out of sync with the rest of Dauphin County.
(There's a story I related elsewhere on C-D that IMO highlights this difference: Lancaster City and Lancaster County formed a joint Human Relations Commission in 1961 to investigate complaints of discrimination on the basis of race, creed and color, which were the only protected categories at the time; as age and sex were added to the list, the joint commission took up those matters too.
(In 1985, Lancaster City added sexual orientation to its list of protected categories, making it one of Pennsylvania's early adopters in that regard. After it did so, the county pulled out of the joint commission.)
And while I'm on this subject: There does seem to be some sort of correlation between a welcoming environment for LGBT people and artistic creativity. Lancaster has had a gay bar downtown for as long as I've lived in this region (the same one, in fact), and on my most recent visit there, my boyfriend and I hung out in the upstairs bar of a restaurant owned by a gay couple what wasn't specifically LGBT but had what I called "a sensibility so gay it hurts." I don't think I've run into any examples of this sort of thing in Harrisburg.
Tangent: I note that of the three cities that comprise the South Central Pennsylvania Triangle, Lancaster is the only one without an Interstate highway. This could be fixed easily by simply re-signing State Route 283 as the extension of the partial Intertstate beltway around Harrisburg to which it connects and whose route number it bears.
Edited to add:Penna76 properly called out KevinE on getting Harrisburg's history wrong. Harrisburg is both where it is and what it is, I hear, because a fellow named Harris bought several hundred acres of land at this point and began a ferry service across the Susquehanna. In the 1790s, his son laid out a town and offered the townsite to Pennsylvania as the site or a new capital city to replace Philadelphia. The state took Harris up on the offer.
There's active talk of a Harrisburg-Lancaster regional rail service. Actually, this IMO is something SEPTA should express interest in operating under contract, much as it operates regional rail service in northern New Castle County under contract to the Delaware Department of Transportation/DART First State. Doing so, IMO, would bolster the case it seeks to make that it is actually a key contributor to Pennsylvania's prosperity (even without it, it is because it operates in the Southeast, which is the state's economically strongest region, but most Pennsylvanians living outside the Southeast don't see things that way).
Even though they're not one single conurbation now, I do believe that Harrisburg/Lancaster/York will grow towards one another. Harrisburg and Lancaster will become a single metropolitan region first, then York will add itself a little later.
Lancaster now has both a Whole Foods and a Wegmans, and they are located both near each other and near the Park City Mall. Does Harrisburg have a Whole Foods yet?
(BTW, Lancaster City's northwest quarter is where you will find both Franklin & Marshall College and the cxity's toniest residential districts, which spill over into next-door Lancaster Township. I suspect that's why all of these upscale retail options are located where they are, and this area is indeed away from the touristy part of Lancaster County. If I'm not mistaken, the main road through this area is called Harrisburg Pike.)
Some posters, I believe including you, have pointed out that Harrisburg today has fewer inhabitants than it once did. I do think that goes a long way towards explaining the diverging fortunes of Harrisburg and Lancaster: Lancaster hasn't emptied out at all. I think that fact also explains why I say that, like Wilmington, Harrisburg looks bigger than it is — it once was bigger than it is now.
The Susquehanna riverfront at Harrisburg, IMO, is one of that city's biggest assets. No other urban riverfront in the state is as lovely, the Schuylkill through Fairmount Park in Philadelphia perhaps the lone exception. And State Street between Front Street and the state Capitol is also one of the most beautiful residential streets in the state, and it may be the one part of Harrisburg whose historic character pretty much survives intact. (Judging from what I read here about the lack of an active preservation community in H'burg, that may be a happy accident.)
But — also like Wilmington — when the office workers go home, downtown Harrisburg goes comatose. I do remember one writer in PGN referring to "Harrisburg's catatonic nightlife" in an article I read soon after moving here in 1983, and while it appears to me that things have improved since then, they sure haven't improved much. Downtown Lancaster, OTOH, remains vibrant after the workday ends.
I think that city-county cooperation does help explain the difference, along with the fact that Lancaster is located near the center of its county and doesn't have to deal with any other county in planning for metropolitan growth or development. But I also note that Lancaster City is as liberal as Lancaster County is conservative, and I don't think Harrisburg is quite as out of sync with the rest of Dauphin County.
(There's a story I related elsewhere on C-D that IMO highlights this difference: Lancaster City and Lancaster County formed a joint Human Relations Commission in 1961 to investigate complaints of discrimination on the basis of race, creed and color, which were the only protected categories at the time; as age and sex were added to the list, the joint commission took up those matters too.
(In 1985, Lancaster City added sexual orientation to its list of protected categories, making it one of Pennsylvania's early adopters in that regard. After it did so, the county pulled out of the joint commission.)
And while I'm on this subject: There does seem to be some sort of correlation between a welcoming environment for LGBT people and artistic creativity. Lancaster has had a gay bar downtown for as long as I've lived in this region (the same one, in fact), and on my most recent visit there, my boyfriend and I hung out in the upstairs bar of a restaurant owned by a gay couple what wasn't specifically LGBT but had what I called "a sensibility so gay it hurts." I don't think I've run into any examples of this sort of thing in Harrisburg.
Tangent: I note that of the three cities that comprise the South Central Pennsylvania Triangle, Lancaster is the only one without an Interstate highway. This could be fixed easily by simply re-signing State Route 283 as the extension of the partial Intertstate beltway around Harrisburg to which it connects and whose route number it bears.
Edited to add:Penna76 properly called out KevinE on getting Harrisburg's history wrong. Harrisburg is both where it is and what it is, I hear, because a fellow named Harris bought several hundred acres of land at this point and began a ferry service across the Susquehanna. In the 1790s, his son laid out a town and offered the townsite to Pennsylvania as the site or a new capital city to replace Philadelphia. The state took Harris up on the offer.
Thank you for this post. I agree with you about the artistic correlation and LGBTQ welcoming sentiment but ironically Harrisburg has always had a much more significant LGBTQ scene. At one point, the city had five gay bars. It's only three now but still punches well above its weight in that regard. The LGBTQ community center has its own physical storefront in midtown. Finally, the sensibility you described is quite common at bars in midtown such as HMAC and Note.
I'm not totally sure why Harrisburg has always had such a strong LGBTQ population per capita but I'm sure the state government and stability of employment there probably has something to do with it.
Dyeing TaxBase, and Residents and Business leave if/when they can
No you are thinking of Harrisburg over ten years ago in the 2009 era, when Linda Thompson was running the show. (Perhaps the worst mayor in the cities History).
Harrisburg City has made overall a turn around, with lots of new development in its Midtown neighborhood and even Downtown has seen some significant residential projects.
A new 18 story School of Nursing and Pharmacy is set to break ground later this year in downtown Harrisburg.
This is also comparing the metro level at a whole between Harrisburg and Lancaster.
Which the Harrisburg metro on paper has a larger population, with a more diverse economy, more white collar type of employers (thanks to the state government and Penn State) and wealthier overall GDPP and household income.
The whole purpose of this thread, is to ask.
If Harrisburg on paper is the more well to do metro, then:
Why does Harrisburg feel a bit further behind than Lancaster in its redevelopment within both the city and at the metro level.
Lancaster has amenities like Whole Foods, Apple Store, Nordstrom Rack, etc. Which all are things that only locate in desirable, high income markets.
I guess you can say Harrisburg has a Range Rover dealership. Which Lancaster does not.
But. I don't know. Harrisburg feels behind Lancaster and it is an interesting analysis.
No you are thinking of Harrisburg over ten years ago in the 2009 era, when Linda Thompson was running the show. (Perhaps the worst mayor in the cities History).
Harrisburg City has made overall a turn around, with lots of new development in its Midtown neighborhood and even Downtown has seen some significant residential projects.
A new 18 story School of Nursing and Pharmacy is set to break ground later this year in downtown Harrisburg.
This is also comparing the metro level at a whole between Harrisburg and Lancaster.
Which the Harrisburg metro on paper has a larger population, with a more diverse economy, more white collar type of employers (thanks to the state government and Penn State) and wealthier overall GDPP and household income.
The whole purpose of this thread, is to ask.
If Harrisburg on paper is the more well to do metro, then:
Why does Harrisburg feel a bit further behind than Lancaster in its redevelopment within both the city and at the metro level.
Lancaster has amenities like Whole Foods, Apple Store, Nordstrom Rack, etc. Which all are things that only locate in desirable, high income markets.
I guess you can say Harrisburg has a Range Rover dealership. Which Lancaster does not.
But. I don't know. Harrisburg feels behind Lancaster and it is an interesting analysis.
Umm, I'll give Harrisburg the Range Rover dealership, but Lancaster has a BMW dealership, a Mercedes Benz dealership and a Porsche/Audi dealership at Autohaus Lancaster about a 2 minute drive from the Whole Foods and the Wegman's. Pretty upscale to me. Just sayin.
Umm, I'll give Harrisburg the Range Rover dealership, but Lancaster has a BMW dealership, a Mercedes Benz dealership and a Porsche/Audi dealership at Autohaus Lancaster about a 2 minute drive from the Whole Foods and the Wegman's. Pretty upscale to me. Just sayin.
Yes, I am aware of the differences.
Harrisburg does also have a Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, Maserati, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura dealership all in that same area as the Range Rover dealer and fairly close to the Harrisburg Wegmans. And the housing developments by those premiums dealerships in Harrisburg overall are quite nice and upper middle class. 700k+ homes.
But no Whole Foods, Apple Store, Nordstrom Rack, etc.
This is what I am referring too. Harrisburg actually is the wealthier metro on paper, but in assets Lancaster is coming out ahead.
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