Philadelphia 2035 (Washington, Franklin: apartment, mortgages, construction)

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by MPK21

The subway station in the Market/20s isn't something I envisioned but, as MarketStEl pointed out, plans for a station here have been around a long time and has come up here-n-there most recently due to the current (2222) and proposed developments in these blocks. There were hopes of decent to large commercial developments here as the office/commercial sector moves, or was envisioned to move, to a bi-lateral Schuykill/30th Street Station orientation.

Although a pipe dream, if the 1987 plans did take shape, what would this area, currently large parking craters, look like 35 years later?

All bets are off though, whether it's a BSL Navy Yard extension or getting SEPTA back to some semblance of pre-pandemic ridership, until the full effects of the pandemic shake-out, which are expected to take years. Local concerns with a background of growing national and global concerns.

Personally, I like that there is a bit of an "express" between 15th and 30th Streets on the El although it can be a bit disconcerting sometimes waiting at the trolley stops in between as the El rumbles past.

The 1987 concepts that you and MarketStEl discuss are fascinating. I was a bit too young to be able to know or understand in those days. I'm sure the south end of 21st and 22nd Streets would have been developed much sooner, and the tragedy at the Goodwill would have never happened.

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by FindingZen

Personally, I like that there is a bit of an "express" between 15th and 30th Streets on the El although it can be a bit disconcerting sometimes waiting at the trolley stops in between as the El rumbles past.

The 1987 concepts that you and MarketStEl discuss are fascinating. I was a bit too young to be able to know or understand in those days. I'm sure the south end of 21st and 22nd Streets would have been developed much sooner, and the tragedy at the Goodwill would have never happened.

Hadn't heard of the 1987 plans until now as well and only heard talk of a new station in the MSL/20s when Aramark moved and plans were announced etc for 2222 with more talk about commercial office developments.

It is backwards though that a city like Philly has such a long gap in its main commercial corridor subway line; speeding under the Market Street parking craters and relying on trolley transfers from 15th-30th Streets.

Regardless, an additional MSL station in this area is not going to happen anytime soon but plans are in the works for a residential rental building in the Trader Joe's parking lot and another wedged between JFK and the SEPTA tracks.

2222 may be the only ''for lease'' commercial office development east of the Schuykill for a long time and Philly waited something like 30 years for this building.

[thedirtypirate]

Originally Posted by MPK21

2222 may be the only ''for lease'' commercial office development east of the Schuykill for a long time and Philly waited something like 30 years for this building.

just to be clear though, the building isn't "for lease", it's the new location of the Morgan Lewis & Bockius law firm. Our economy, while robust enough to produce more skyscrapers than most cities, is not dynamic enough to see investment levels that are required for spec buildings that lease up after being built. Nothing really breaks ground without the tenants already lined up. Also that statement really doesn't make sense given that Aramark's HQ is only a couple years old. There's smaller buildings that have been turned into commercial services too like Vanguard's Innovation center. I think you meant to say this is the first ground up office skyscraper in 30 years along West Market.

I don't really agree with your previous statement it would fit in at a suburban office park either. I would be curious to see what office parks you were talking about lol. Maybe a modern edge city like Arlington or maybe Conshy, but not an office park imo.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by thedirtypirate

I don't really agree with your previous statement it would fit in at a suburban office park either. I would be curious to see what office parks you were talking about lol. Maybe a modern edge city like Arlington or maybe Conshy, but not an office park imo.

Agreed. I think that building turned out cool.

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by thedirtypirate

just to be clear though, the building isn't "for lease", it's the new location of the Morgan Lewis & Bockius law firm. Our economy, while robust enough to produce more skyscrapers than most cities, is not dynamic enough to see investment levels that are required for spec buildings that lease up after being built. Nothing really breaks ground without the tenants already lined up. Also that statement really doesn't make sense given that Aramark's HQ is only a couple years old. There's smaller buildings that have been turned into commercial services too like Vanguard's Innovation center. I think you meant to say this is the first ground up office skyscraper in 30 years along West Market.

I don't really agree with your previous statement it would fit in at a suburban office park either. I would be curious to see what office parks you were talking about lol. Maybe a modern edge city like Arlington or maybe Conshy, but not an office park imo.

Right, it's not ''for lease'' and was leased to single-occupant ML&B, and is not spec. No one is building a ground up commercial property in Philly waiting for tenants to show up later.

Does Aramark own its new location like the Comcast properties? Besides, even if it does, the new Aramark location was a rehab of an existing building which was supposed to be the real start of the commercial movement of CC towards the Schuykill...which was the reason this old plan for a new MSL station in this area surfaced a few years back.

Where else in CC, (east of the Schuykill) has there been ground-up office skyscraper in 30 years other than the ''leased to a single-tenant'' 300,000sf 2222 Market? I found this hard to believe when I read related to the 2222 project but can't think of one as the Comcast or Jeff buildings etc don't count.

Not sure how our local economy is ''robust'' for new skyscrapers more than other cities yet isn't ''dynamic'' enough to do it. This used to called ''lack of demand''. Sounds like a oxymoron given that robust and dynamic are synonymous terms. Hell, even Cleveland had a 480,000 spec commercial building with some spec space 10 years ago in its CBD and Sherwin-Williams, a la Comcast I-II, is currently constructing its new single-tenant ground-up 1,000,000sf headquarters.

As to the final look, style, and design of 2222 Market, I don't care for it as of now, perhaps that will change but it's a far cry from the original design. It's looking bland enough and has the size to be in a suburban corporate office park. Again, glad to see any development let alone taking up a parking crater in a sea of parking craters and one can still, as of today, their own opinion to a degree, but if 2222 is the only CC ground up commercial development in 30 years...In the meantime, I guess we can rationalize that our economy is robust enough for skyscrapers but isn't dynamic enough for skyscrapers...lol.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by MPK21

As to the final look, style, and design of 2222 Market, I don't care for it as of now, perhaps that will change but it's a far cry from the original design. It's looking bland enough and has the size to be in a suburban corporate office park. Again, glad to see any development let alone taking up a parking crater in a sea of parking craters and one can still, as of today, their own opinion to a degree, but if 2222 is the only CC ground up commercial development in 30 years...In the meantime, I guess we can rationalize that our economy is robust enough for skyscrapers but isn't dynamic enough for skyscrapers...lol.

Well you can't argue against the fact that there's been no shortage of residential high-rises, and at least one high-profile hospitality tower (the W/Element). The city has managed to grow its population and economy reasonably well in spite of maintaining (sans Comcast) essentially the same volume of office space for a whole generation.

And again, I think the dearth of spec-based office development in Philly, while it showed challenges in decades past with attracting large corporate tenants, is fortuitous. These days I'd argue that less office space is actually a strength. Major office development is likely going to be unheard in the vast majority of cities moving forward, and the current space that exists is going to face headwinds everywhere for quite some time.

Planning to readapt the CBD core to accommodate more residential, entertainment, hospitality, or business "hoteling" uses is going to be the way to move forward.

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by Duderino

Well you can't argue against the fact that there's been no shortage of residential high-rises, and at least one high-profile hospitality tower (the W/Element). The city has managed to grow its population and economy reasonably well in spite of maintaining (sans Comcast) essentially the same volume of office space for a whole generation.

And again, I think the dearth of spec-based office development in Philly, while it showed challenges in decades past with attracting large corporate tenants, is fortuitous. These days I'd argue that less office space is actually a strength. Major office development is likely going to be unheard in the vast majority of cities moving forward, and the current space that exists is going to face headwinds everywhere for quite some time.

Planning to readapt the CBD core to accommodate more residential, entertainment, hospitality, or business "hoteling" uses is going to be the way to move forward.

Residential development and one free standing new ground up hotel wasn't mentioned because that wasn't the topic, so who is arguing this point?

Philly needs its wage tax $$ and despite its recent gains, it remains the poorest of the 10 largest U.S. cities.

It was also in response to our economy being robust for new skyscrapers yet not dynamic enough for new skyscrapers...lol

[thedirtypirate]

Originally Posted by MPK21

It was also in response to our economy being robust for new skyscrapers yet not dynamic enough for new skyscrapers...lol

That’s… not what I said
I said buildings generally aren’t built without tenants lined up. Which is true and doesn’t really matter that much considering there’s probably only 4 or 5 US cities actually building more than Philly.

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by thedirtypirate

just to be clear though, the building isn't "for lease", it's the new location of the Morgan Lewis & Bockius law firm. Our economy, while robust enough to produce more skyscrapers than most cities, is not dynamic enough to see investment levels that are required for spec buildings that lease up after being built. Nothing really breaks ground without the tenants already lined up. Also that statement really doesn't make sense given that Aramark's HQ is only a couple years old. There's smaller buildings that have been turned into commercial services too like Vanguard's Innovation center. I think you meant to say this is the first ground up office skyscraper in 30 years along West Market.

I don't really agree with your previous statement it would fit in at a suburban office park either. I would be curious to see what office parks you were talking about lol. Maybe a modern edge city like Arlington or maybe Conshy, but not an office park imo.

Hmm...

[MPK21]

Originally Posted by bridge12

I'll take Kendra Brooks over Darrell Clarke, Cindy Bass, or Kenyatta Johnson any day of the week. I think there's obviously a place for an authentic poor and working class Black voice on city council and Kendra does a pretty good job of that. What we don't need more of are establishment boomer conservatives like the majority of the district councilmembers.

You mean someone that used to be perhaps ''authentic poor and working class''... I do get the need for the ''authentic'' part though given that today, one must have a hardship story (what used to be called life) and now is part of one's resume...''grew up poor''...''being working class'' cuz you tended bar etc. for a bit after college but otherwise grew up with professional parents in places like Westchester County NY.