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I see the Taxpayer Sheraton is going broke and Phoenix residents will have to eat millions of dollars in losses. The Suns can't put a quality product on the floor but want the taxpayers to build them a new arena. There was a brief glimmer of hope, but it looks like the same old, same old when it comes to downtown development. Downtown Phoenix will never be what it never was.
The talk about a new arena for the Suns is just that: talk and rumors (as noted in the above link). Chances are that if it ever does happen, it will be years from now. Even so, the taxpayers shouldn't be funding it ... nor should they be funding hotels.
On the other hand, some people have enough private capital to invest in new developments without having to lean on the taxpayers. This isn't so much the case with new families moving into the outer suburbs who rely on the taxpayer funded freeways for their commute, and taxpayer funded schools for their kids. Oh, and at least with downtown developments, the infrastructure is already in place. Whenever a development is built in the distant suburbs, there has to be new streets, new sidewalks, new water lines, new sewer lines, new lighting, etc., etc. ... often funded by taxpayers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS
I dont see a need for high rises. Why? Because there's no demand for them that I can see. I have a friend who lives right downtown and he says his 10-story building is hardly even half full.
As far as buildings that are barely half full, you could say the same thing about many newer neighborhoods in the far flung suburbs that were constructed during the "boom" (or bubble really). Many strip malls are sitting vacant with maybe a small handful of tenants. Maricopa is taking a long time to recover and fill up the houses that were left abandoned. The Westgate area of Glendale was supposed to be thriving with all kinds of commercial development by now, but much of the land around it sits vacant.
On the other hand, some people have enough private capital to invest in new developments without having to lean on the taxpayers. This isn't so much the case with new families moving into the outer suburbs who rely on the taxpayer funded freeways for their commute, and taxpayer funded schools for their kids. Oh, and at least with downtown developments, the infrastructure is already in place. Whenever a development is built in the distant suburbs, there has to be new streets, new sidewalks, new water lines, new sewer lines, new lighting, etc., etc. ... often funded by taxpayers.
Again...you are not going to see families move into those highrises unless their kids are going to private schools. The school district downtown is HORRIBLE.
Again...you are not going to see families move into those highrises unless their kids are going to private schools. The school district downtown is HORRIBLE.
It's not quite that simple. First, people with children are not the prime demographic for downtown high rises in any city. The schools downtown do have some challenges. I know this because my wife is on the Phoenix Elementary School District governing board. There are actually two downtown school districts. K-8 is in Phoenix Elementary and 9-12 is in Phoenix Union High School District. A big problem that both districts, the elementary district in particular, have is something called GPLETs. While there is a lot of expensive real estate downtown, the City of Phoenix has a program under which the city holds the (technical) title to a property and leases it to the developer. As city-owned property the development is not subject to property taxes. The city makes a calculated judgment that the revenue that they will lose by doing this will be offset by other economic benefits. Unfortunately the school districts, which are separate entities that pretty much live off of property taxes, have no voice in the matter, and you end up with a multi-million dollar project like CityScape paying no property taxes. The historic neighborhoods provide a good tax base but most of the district is quite poor.
There are still reasonable educational options for people who want to live downtown, however. Phoenix Union Bioscience High School gets a 10 from greatschools.org. Arizona School for the Arts and Metro Arts institute are nearby charters that gets 10s as well. There is an International Baccalaureate Program at North High that is well thought of. Phoenix Elementary has a Magnet Traditional School and Faith North Montessori that both get good ratings. There is also the Madison Elementary School District a few miles up Central, which gets a lot of kids from the downtown/midtown area. The immediate districts definitely need improvement but schools should not be a deal breaker for people who want to live downtown.
It's not quite that simple. First, people with children are not the prime demographic for downtown high rises in any city. The schools downtown do have some challenges. I know this because my wife is on the Phoenix Elementary School District governing board. There are actually two downtown school districts. K-8 is in Phoenix Elementary and 9-12 is in Phoenix Union High School District. A big problem that both districts, the elementary district in particular, have is something called GPLETs. While there is a lot of expensive real estate downtown, the City of Phoenix has a program under which the city holds the (technical) title to a property and leases it to the developer. As city-owned property the development is not subject to property taxes. The city makes a calculated judgment that the revenue that they will lose by doing this will be offset by other economic benefits. Unfortunately the school districts, which are separate entities that pretty much live off of property taxes, have no voice in the matter, and you end up with a multi-million dollar project like CityScape paying no property taxes. The historic neighborhoods provide a good tax base but most of the district is quite poor.
There are still reasonable educational options for people who want to live downtown, however. Phoenix Union Bioscience High School gets a 10 from greatschools.org. Arizona School for the Arts and Metro Arts institute are nearby charters that gets 10s as well. There is an International Baccalaureate Program at North High that is well thought of. Phoenix Elementary has a Magnet Traditional School and Faith North Montessori that both get good ratings. There is also the Madison Elementary School District a few miles up Central, which gets a lot of kids from the downtown/midtown area. The immediate districts definitely need improvement but schools should not be a deal breaker for people who want to live downtown.
I think a super market is very important. Here in Estrella, things really took off when the Safeway opened. There is some coincidence there, but being able to run to the store for a few things or even a week's groceries is a big deal. Phoenix would wise to do what developers do: build a supermarket and subsidize it; build a school, donate land for churches. primary care medical, and other things that make a community. I don't think Phoenix really wants a community though. They are more interested in attracting conventions and business than full time residents. In any case, the schools are not that big a deal. Downtowns everywhere are going to be populated by wealthy empty-nesters over the next 20 years.
I think a super market is very important. Here in Estrella, things really took off when the Safeway opened. There is some coincidence there, but being able to run to the store for a few things or even a week's groceries is a big deal. Phoenix would wise to do what developers do: build a supermarket and subsidize it; build a school, donate land for churches and other things that make a community. I don't think Phoenix really wants a community though. They are more interested in attracting conventions and business than full time residents. In any case, the schools are not that big a deal. Downtowns everywhere are going to be populated by wealthy empty-nesters over the next 20 years.
There was big news when Downtown got that ABCO supermarket at 7th St and McDowell in the mid 90's and I think Phoenix subsidized it. That's a Safeway now if I'm not mistaken. Not really in "Downtown" but fairly close
It's a bit sad that CityNorth, a faux downtown/main street...now has a grocery store (though pretty small) along with the HQ of Sprouts, while downtown still doesn't.
If a business does its homework right and can reasonably expect to make a profit and sustain itself, they will locate to said area. If they can't, they won't. Simple as that. I don't think subsidizing a business that wouldn't locate in an area in the 1st place because it simply wouldn't be profitable is the best idea as to me it's propping up something that can't stand on its own and can get very costly for the taxpayer. I say let the free market work the way its supposed to work by building something that's in demand as that gives business the best chance of hanging around and serving/providing what people really want in a given area instead of forcing a square peg in a round hole.
It's not quite that simple. First, people with children are not the prime demographic for downtown high rises in any city. The schools downtown do have some challenges. I know this because my wife is on the Phoenix Elementary School District governing board. There are actually two downtown school districts. K-8 is in Phoenix Elementary and 9-12 is in Phoenix Union High School District. A big problem that both districts, the elementary district in particular, have is something called GPLETs. While there is a lot of expensive real estate downtown, the City of Phoenix has a program under which the city holds the (technical) title to a property and leases it to the developer. As city-owned property the development is not subject to property taxes. The city makes a calculated judgment that the revenue that they will lose by doing this will be offset by other economic benefits. Unfortunately the school districts, which are separate entities that pretty much live off of property taxes, have no voice in the matter, and you end up with a multi-million dollar project like CityScape paying no property taxes. The historic neighborhoods provide a good tax base but most of the district is quite poor.
There are still reasonable educational options for people who want to live downtown, however. Phoenix Union Bioscience High School gets a 10 from greatschools.org. Arizona School for the Arts and Metro Arts institute are nearby charters that gets 10s as well. There is an International Baccalaureate Program at North High that is well thought of. Phoenix Elementary has a Magnet Traditional School and Faith North Montessori that both get good ratings. There is also the Madison Elementary School District a few miles up Central, which gets a lot of kids from the downtown/midtown area. The immediate districts definitely need improvement but schools should not be a deal breaker for people who want to live downtown.
Good points, informative...and yes I agree that there are some very good Charter Schools and Private options downtown. But they can only take so many kids. Condos along 7th Ave are going for $500k - $1.25M according to Zillow...homes ate in the $500k+ range...I guess if you are making the kind of money to purchase one of those you would have enough to send your kids to a private school. To your point, BASIS just opened a K-7 up on Indian School and Central area (I think), but those schools can be tough to get into. While I agree that families may not be the target market for a Roosevelt Row, historically that is how you are going to cultivate roots and "stickiness" of a neighborhood rather than a transient population of students, DINKs, single artists or empty-nesters.
Great little area, my wife and I drove through on our lunch hour a couple of days ago and she mentioned that we should bring the kids up and walk through the galleries.
There was big news when Downtown got that ABCO supermarket at 7th St and McDowell in the mid 90's and I think Phoenix subsidized it. That's a Safeway now if I'm not mistaken. Not really in "Downtown" but fairly close
There is a Basha's at 7th Ave and Osborn...that is more in the Melrose district but, I think that would be the closest one.
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