Opinions On Proposition 104 (Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tempe: real estate, homes, subdivisions)

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

You just proved my point about government vs. private when you brought up the example of buying into a mutual fund. You put your own money into the fund, and it grew over the years because you invested wisely into a pool in which (more than likely) other reputable companies invest in. Big difference between investing in stocks/mutual funds and trusting the government & politicians to manage what we give them!

Things like public transportation and public education are always going to be money losing investments (and I use the word "investment" very loosely in these cases). Don't you realize that every time we vote on additional funding for schools or transportation projects, what is initially promised is rarely ever fulfilled in the end?! ADOT and the freeways are one big shining example. The 2000 tax increase to spend more money on public schools is another good example. After a few years, the same politicians and the same special interests keep claiming "there isn't enough money".

No matter how much money we throw into public services (especially schools), it hardly ever produces the results we asked for because the gov't is too much involved. Privatize these things and you will see better results in most cases. Asking everybody to contribute to things they don't use is socialism, and the output is about the same as investing in a bear fund (if you really want to compare investing in mutual funds to "investing" in public education or transportation).

That's not proving your point, it's showing what happens when you invest. I've also spent more money upfront on things that in the end mean I spend less. Case in point: the interstate system. That was extraordinarily expensive, but that investment also meant more jobs and a growing economy in the long run. Cities absolutely have to invest in themselves if they're going to have any shot of a good future. It's my understanding that New York once faced a very uncertain future as Americans moved west, but they fought to stay on top and invested more in their city. Likewise, I think Phoenix is in a unique position to... I guess that depends what people allow to happen. Phoenix is the sixth largest city now. In 1950 and 1960, Baltimore held that spot (now number 26 and over 600,000 fewer people) and by 1980 Detroit ranked sixth (now 18th and over half a million fewer people). The point is that Phoenix is certainly not immune to circumstances, and if this city is going to have any shot at a future it needs to invest in itself. Neither of those two cities did a very good job in the past, did they? Look at them now! Phoenix is neither of those cities, nor is it any of the more successful ones: it has its own unique challenges at this point in time just as those cities have theirs now and had theirs in the past. Pick any global city and it's a pretty safe bet that they were able to elevate themselves to become more by investing wisely in the city. Again: it is not a quick fix, you will not see results overnight, but what people do with it today will affect it in the future... just like how incompetent leaders in the past bulldozed historic Phoenix, which probably would've really aided urban redevelopment today.

The same politicians, huh? Well, I wasn't around to vote in the last election... so whose fault is it the same people made it back in office? You certainly can't blame me for re-electing someone. You could, however, blame the nature of this city and the lack of community and civic involvement. People here by and large don't feel engaged in the local community or political scene, either because they just don't care or they don't intend to stay, which also means they don't care what happens at the local level. If you don't like what the state's done with the money... sue! You do realize that if it bothers you that much, you could actually gather a team of like-minded people to sue the city, county, state or whatever you want, don't you? If you firmly believe that you and other voters were misled, regardless of what the wording says, you can take the government itself to court. I guess if you cared that much, you'd be a bit more proactive about it rather than venting here.

Okay, with all that being said, now you should start a movement to privatize Arizona. You won't really like the outcome, but if you think now it'll make you happy, go for it. Start a grassroots movement and push, push, push until you get exactly what you wanted. Kind of reminds me of the time when my stomach was really bothering me and the doctor thought I might have a gluten allergy, so he requested a blood test. Thanks to a clerical error I got the full bill. Hold that up to the time I was genuinely ill and hospitalized while overseas. The checklist: ER visit, two nights in a hospital, four IV bags, an HIV test (as mandated by the government for foreigners living there), two other blood tests, multiple shots, prescription medicine, a sonogram, x-ray and a few other little bits and pieces. Though I winced at first when they handed me the bill, I breathed a sigh of relief and disbelief. The price tag of that... slightly more than the blood test I got in America: $700. Oh... I didn't have health insurance there either. So with the wonderful privatized system America has in place in health care alone, it would be interesting to see the entire system become for-profit. (Reminder: privatizing a system means someone needs to be making money off it)

[azriverfan.]

I don't know why the Valley doesn't build toll roads. In Florida, I love the Sun Pass. You prepay and place the pass on your windshield. Every time you take a toll road, it deducts from the pass. You can even use it to park at the airports. It's a big convenience. It's not cheap but it saves a lot of time and it's a lot cheaper than buying a hybrid for the sole purpose of using the HOV lane. It will generate money too.

[JGMotorsport64]

Metro light rail in Phoenix has been catalyst for $8 billion in new development - Phoenix Business Journal


This is a real reason to buy into something like a rail.

I mentioned earlier in the thread about Tucson's investment of 200 mil into their streetcar, it has netted close to 1 billion dollars in investment in DT Tucson in just over 1 year. For those that think it's a waste of money, it's not really about the Light Rail itself, it's about what the Light Rail does for the city. An investment that can pay large dividends when done properly. IMO the only reason to vote against this measure is by disagreeing with the proposed route (it's pretty suspect). But Rail is a good thing for a city when done properly. I'd contend that we should run a route down East Camelback by the highrises over there, to the Scottsdale Fashion square then down Scottsdale rd to connect it to Tempe. This would be a heavily used route (but I doubt Scottsdale will ever get on board despite their traffic woes).

[new2colo]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I don't know why the Valley doesn't build toll roads. In Florida, I love the Sun Pass. You prepay and place the pass on your windshield. Every time you take a toll road, it deducts from the pass. You can even use it to park at the airports. It's a big convenience. It's not cheap but it saves a lot of time and it's a lot cheaper than buying a hybrid for the sole purpose of using the HOV lane. It will generate money too.

ADOT and MAG are hesitant to have toll roads because of the backlash they know they would receive from the public. Also, there is the threat the state legislature could ban toll facilities in the state if transportation agencies aren't judicious with how they introduce toll roads here. The problem is too many people here expect something for nothing. People say they want things privatized, but then they start having palpitations when the word toll is brought up.

[cactusland]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I don't know why the Valley doesn't build toll roads.

Don't you dare bring that stuff here. Part of the reason why (most of) the west is so nice to drive in is it isn't tolled every five feet. Half of that money never makes it to the roads out east anyway due to corruption.

[phoenixmike11]

Rogue Columnist: The transportation vote

Jon Talton (former columnist at the Arizona Republic) view on Prop 104

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by phoenixmike11

Rogue Columnist: The transportation vote

Jon Talton (former columnist at the Arizona Republic) view on Prop 104

Good piece.

That's what I've been saying even gung ho conservative Texas cities are embracing rail. Especially Dallas (who is pretty liberal at the core however).

We're behind and we keep falling behind the more we vote these things down.

[sargeant79]

Originally Posted by phoenixmike11

Rogue Columnist: The transportation vote

Jon Talton (former columnist at the Arizona Republic) view on Prop 104

That was a good, quick read. The only thing I disagree with is the author's comments on the South Mountain Freeway being a waste of money. Both light rail and freeway expansion are necessary, in my opinion. In this case, they serve completely different markets, and each separately improve a different segment of the valley. A good transportation policy combines a focus on both public transportation and freeway/road infrastructure.

[justniz]

The stupid Phoenix light rail system has been a white elephant right from the start.
If they really wanted to reduce traffic congestion they shouldn't have introduced something that permanently removes one or two pre-existing traffic lanes from everywhere it goes.
Just from watching the trains its clear that very few people use the light rail. Unless you live very near a stop (which is relatively very few people) the rail system is basically irrelevant/uesless. 3 almost empty trains an hour doesn't come even close to the number of people the same traffic lanes could and did accommodate in cars.
Not only should we all vote against 104, we should vote to shut the light rail down ASAP and return the massive amount of cost and space it takes up back into roads and road maintenance.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by cactusland

Don't you dare bring that stuff here. Part of the reason why (most of) the west is so nice to drive in is it isn't tolled every five feet. Half of that money never makes it to the roads out east anyway due to corruption.

I love them. The tolls are isolated and you don't have to take them. You don't have to stop either. It reads your Sun Pass as you pass through them. It's ideal. It relieves a lot of congestion. I wish we had some tolls. You can choose to take them and pay a fee or take the free roads. I don't see what the problem is.