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If Statisticians made stats about the kinds of things it would be easier. Although then we run into what qualifies as 'urban' in the first place.
I guess all we can do is wait, see and guess about the future...
I hear you.....hey, how about semi-urban?
I'm all for the flow of letting things happen based on supply/demand as I think that's healthy for the long term of any city/metro area. If Phoenix/Tempe builds up a bigger size area that turns into a Greenwich village type thing, great. Though sometimes I worry city planners/some outside groups want to make a city into something it's not ready for and builds certain buildings/infrastructure without analyzing demand and they get stuck with empty buildings for the most part and the infrastructure doesn't get used. The tail wagging the dog type of planning. As for Prop 104, if DT Phoenix is heading this way to expand it's footprint into a bigger urban center, perhaps it's a bit premature to expand the light-rail at this point. Might be best to wait several years before putting a Prop 104 type ballot out there and wait until the city grows out a bit to see where more light rail track might be more effectively placed. I hate to see the light-rail expand as a bridge to no where and where it's used very little. There's some big money going down here to build this out. Kind of like putting in a bunch of supermarkets/big box stores in place before a suburb barely takes shape.
I love them. The tolls are isolated and you don't have to take them. You don't have to stop either. It reads your Sun Pass as you pass through them. It's ideal. It relieves a lot of congestion. I wish we had some tolls. You can choose to take them and pay a fee or take the free roads. I don't see what the problem is.
The problem isn't when they build new alternative roads and put tolls on them, but when they put tolls on the only road to somewhere, or introduce tolls on existing roads that we've already paid for in taxes, and are already used to driving toll-free.
The unrealistically low speed limits on our freeways have little or nothing to do with actual safety but are really just there as part of another revenue stream mechanism for the city/state. I'd happily welcome tolls on existing freeways if it also came with significantly higher speed limits and more stringent driving tests. Its a win-win because the state would still get their cash.
If you think that idea is bad because you really believe in the myth that driving over 65mph is intrinsically dangerous, then you need to look at the excellent safety record on Autobahns in Germany where over 60% have no speed limits at all, so many if not most cars in the fast lane are travelling 120mph or more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoba...nal_comparison
Admittedly the driving tests in Europe are more stringent than the US, and people do drive better/with more situational awareness and more regard to others over there, but if the driving education was better and speed limits were higher in the US you'd find so would Americans because they'd have to.
I lived in GA for a while where the freeway speed limits are very low (usually 55 where the equivalent road in AZ would be 65 or 75) , yet GA has one of the highest freeway death rates in the developed world exactly because the lower speed limits actually encourage drivers to be more lazy and complacent instead of paying attention to their driving.
I live in Central Phoenix, and I did vote for the existing Rail. I tend to favor a progressive agenda and am not averse to paying higher taxes for infrastructure and schools (I have no children). But light rail has done nothing to improve traffic congestion or the quality of life. Local businesses went out of business or are barely holding on. Of course, big businesses like Starbucks and Target continue to thrive.
Since the Rail was built, traffic congestion is worse. I avoid streets with the Rail, because it takes longer to get through a light. Based on the traffic congestion, I'd say most people still drive. Even if the Rail is extended to cover more areas of Phoenix, people won't use it. It's too hot to walk to a transit station most of the year, and most people are transporting children, older relatives or shopping purchases. Rail is not feasible here. It doesn't make sense to spend massive amounts of money on something that few people use. And one shouldn't compare not wanting to pay for the expense of light rail to failing to fund schools--large numbers of people use the public school system.
Crime has not decreased in our Central Phoenix neighborhood since the Rail was built. In fact, we have had more burglaries and more vagrants in our neighborhood. I don't see how building more rail lines to link the Metro Center area, South Phoenix and West Phoenix with Central Phoenix will do anything to improve the quality of life here.
Apparently, the Rail isn't particularly safe either. Despite the inconvenience of the Light Rail construction, I was looking forward to riding the Rail. However, when I learned of the problems with vagrants riding the rail, I decided not to take the chance. Not having security on board to enforce rules was a huge mistake. When discussing the Rail with City employees at a neighborhood meeting, I was told that they were aware of the freeloader and vagrancy problems and were working on it. That was two or three years ago. Since then, I have heard from a friend of mine who rides the rail that he will not be riding anymore because of the increasing numbers of riffraff riding the train. It has not gotten better as promised. Nothing I have seen at the Rail stations convinces me otherwise.
Why not just have more buses? People who use the Rail probably use buses as well. Why disrupt neighborhoods, businesses and local traffic when we could just have more buses running more often. At least the buses have a driver to collect fares. And with the current internet connectivity people have, setting up car-pools should be easier than in the past.
Now, I'm guessing that someone (probably representing the Big Money sending those flyers I receive in the mail DAILY) will respond with numbers and quotes from a study that says that crime has gone down and there are more businesses, etc. But I live in a neighborhood with the Rail less than a mile away. I've seen for myself, and I know what is going on. I also know that you can manipulate data and numbers to prove almost any point. There is no reason this proposition for a light rail extension had to be lumped in with police, fire, roads, buses, and other infrastructure improvements. It's just another way to force this expensive and ineffective rail option down our throats. The City should submit another infrastructure proposition without the Rail.
You have said a mouthful. Most people are theorizing, and you are living in the middle of it. As someone who voted for it and lives in the middle of it, your voice is stronger than the others who live in the outskirts or out of town and do armchair quarterbacking. Thanks for your POV
Quote:
Originally Posted by autism360
AZ needs to get its finances in order and attract more high paying business jobs before raising any taxes or committing billions to a new project. The state needs to avoid getting into more debt until the unemployent rate goes down and the real estate market which is the largest provider of jobs in AZ improves with double the amount of new homes( not apartments) that are currently being built.
I agree - this city and this state need to step back and look at how this $32 BILLION tax will affect the city, affect how businesses want to come into this state and city, and affect all of our other projects. When we find out that only 8% will be used on all the things those expensive MOVEPHX signs claim, then we need to wonder who benefits from Prop 104, REALLY?!
Only 8% will be used for streets. there is NO requirement in the initiative that any of the proposed projects in the plan actually get built in the end they can use the money for anything. I'm sure at first they will use it but in 2-3 years when everyone forgets about prop 104 they will find a way to use it to fix some pension plan problem.
Thank you for posting that. Some Questions:
Now -- WHY are out of state interests donating more than One Million Dollars to this proposition?
Why don't all the supporters on here ask that question?
Who are these out of state companies?
Whenever a boondoggle like this -- and $32 Billion is a chunk of change - is put out there, someone is benefitting. Someone is lining their pockets. There's an old Latin term: CUI BONO: Who is likely to benefit from this? We need to ask that question and pay close attention.
We already pay gas tax at the pump - that goes towards our roads and improvements. We have very good roads compared to many cities our size and we have a very effective and efficient ADOT team.
If only 8% is going to the roads... what's happening to the other $29 Billion and change? Who gets that? Why do they get that? How can I apply (JK)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondurant
Mailing my ballot tomorrow. I voted "no" on Prop 104. I am very skeptical as to what benefit Phoenix will have long term. There's no telling what kind of innovations in public transport we will see 3 decades down the road. If Phoenix was to go heavy on light rail, the process should have started 3 decades ago instead of today.
The ballot language is highly suspect. Adding "may" regarding the generated revenue allocation to public transport is political trickery. Stanton and Co. are admitting with this language that portions will be distributed elsewhere. I'm left wondering if Prop 104 is also a backup plan to make up for the pension crisis. When the money is moved Stanton will refer agitated voters to the ballot language and say the people approved.
I agree. To those who attack the No Voters, let me say it one more time: We aren't against improvements, we aren't against infrastructure maintenance, we aren't against little kids getting educated... however THAT became part of this thread... We just really don't like the language in this bill and we find the funding of the Yes Camp to be highly suspect.
I like the light rail to downtown. I don't think it will work to Glendale. I don't believe that's what the bill is about. I'm voting NO
This is a real reason to buy into something like a rail.
I mentioned earlier in the thread about Tucson's investment of 200 mil into their streetcar, it has netted close to 1 billion dollars in investment in DT Tucson in just over 1 year. For those that think it's a waste of money, it's not really about the Light Rail itself, it's about what the Light Rail does for the city. An investment that can pay large dividends when done properly. IMO the only reason to vote against this measure is by disagreeing with the proposed route (it's pretty suspect). But Rail is a good thing for a city when done properly. I'd contend that we should run a route down East Camelback by the highrises over there, to the Scottsdale Fashion square then down Scottsdale rd to connect it to Tempe. This would be a heavily used route (but I doubt Scottsdale will ever get on board despite their traffic woes).
Yet, look at the first thread in my post. Is that PHX journal article a puff piece paid for by the millions of dollars being spent by out of state construction companies who will benefit from this? I'm out of town on business this week, but will do my own research on that when I return. According to people who live and work down there, that doesn't sound like the whole truth.
Yet, look at the first thread in my post. Is that PHX journal article a puff piece paid for by the millions of dollars being spent by out of state construction companies who will benefit from this? I'm out of town on business this week, but will do my own research on that when I return. According to people who live and work down there, that doesn't sound like the whole truth.
This is entirely anectodal and without any facts other than what your (I'm assuming anti 104 friends believe).
I have never seen the level of development DT Phx is receiving at this time, is that a result of the Rail? Maybe it's certainly a catalyst, and its also a centerpiece to develop around. What I gave was an article from the Phoenix Business Journal which might have a few better resources than what "people who live and work down there" know. I live and work 'down there' myself.
You live in Glendale but voted on a Phoenix ballot?
It's now official, your credibility has hit rock bottom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga
That's how those Republicans roll, you know how much they love voter fraud. Probably stole some Phoenician's ballot!
Look, I'll try to explain this to both you Einstein's, so the two of you can actually manage to somehow grasp and comprehend it. Read slow, and take your time. Let it sink in. My mailing address is Glendale, (85307), but I receive Phoenix city services. (Police, Fire, Water & Sanitation). Understand? With me so far? And yes, I receive a ballot in the mail before every Phoenix election addressed to....... Wait for it....... My Home! Perhaps you should call the city and explain to them how misinformed they are. And we wonder how Obama got elected twice?
Last edited by petlover8; 08-07-2015 at 06:33 AM..
We need to grow faster and add more people BEFORE we get serious about improving transit?
Also this is a CITY OF PHOENIX proposition not a STATE OF ARIZONA proposition.
Picky picky picky
Phoenix and the rest of AZ needs to get its finances in order and attract more high paying business jobs before raising any taxes or committing billions to a new project. The state needs to avoid getting into more debt until the unemployent rate goes down and the real estate market which is the largest provider of jobs in Phoenix and the rest of AZ improves with double the amount of new homes( not apartments) that are currently being built.
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