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Can we go back to the topic? No one moves to Phoenix to get greenery, period. Again if that's what you want you should be looking elsewhere, stop trying to change the climate and the Sonoran ecosystem into something that it isn't.
I'd argue cars and pollution do a lot more to our heat (remember we are in a valley and that pollution collects) than the grass does to prevent it but I don't see anyone here arguing for mass transit either in the recent posts. By the way, mass transit was one of the ways I thought Phoenix could improve, so that's related to the overall thread.
I guess maybe we could argue that improving urban landscaping would be beneficial for Phoenix so that would be related... but I think we would be better promoting and protecting plants that are native to the Sonora's RARE ecosystem. Like saguaros, which are endangered. And then maybe we can have saguaro fruit in the future a bit more regularly, because that stuff is pretty good. Too bad Saguaros take too long to grow, and no one is patient enough to look out for the long-term benefits of that. Though we do have plenty of other plants that aren't as slow to grow and are more native here that are just as nice. I almost never see anyone with ocotillos? Usually I see prickly pears. I don't recommend cholla, I have bad experiences with those and of course, there are plenty of non-cacti plants that are native here as well outside of Palo Verde trees.
Can we go back to the topic? No one moves to Phoenix to get greenery, period. Again if that's what you want you should be looking elsewhere, stop trying to change the climate and the Sonoran ecosystem into something that it isn't.
I'd argue cars and pollution do a lot more to our heat (remember we are in a valley and that pollution collects) than the grass does to prevent it but I don't see anyone here arguing for mass transit either in the recent posts. By the way, mass transit was one of the ways I thought Phoenix could improve, so that's related to the overall thread.
I guess maybe we could argue that improving urban landscaping would be beneficial for Phoenix so that would be related... but I think we would be better promoting and protecting plants that are native to the Sonora's RARE ecosystem. Like saguaros, which are endangered. And then maybe we can have saguaro fruit in the future a bit more regularly, because that stuff is pretty good. Too bad Saguaros take too long to grow, and no one is patient enough to look out for the long-term benefits of that. Though we do have plenty of other plants that aren't as slow to grow and are more native here that are just as nice. I almost never see anyone with ocotillos? Usually I see prickly pears. I don't recommend cholla, I have bad experiences with those and of course, there are plenty of non-cacti plants that are native here as well outside of Palo Verde trees.
I didn't move to Phoenix for the greenery or the desert flora but I disagree about the landscape having to reflect the natural ecosystem.
Grass and shadetrees provide heat relief, and there are some tree species which don't require much water but provide an abundance of shade.
Try walking barefoot on desert landscaping, or having a picnic, or playing golf, soccer, or croquet, or sending children or pets to play where there are rocks and cactus all around, it's senseless and uncomfortable.
I certainly agree with you about mass transit improvements, light rail needs to be expanded into more suburban areas, commuter rail should be considered, bus service should always be on the increase, and all planned reliever freeways should be built.
I didn't move to Phoenix for the greenery or the desert flora but I disagree about the landscape having to reflect the natural ecosystem.
Grass and shadetrees provide heat relief, and there are some tree species which don't require much water but provide an abundance of shade.
Try walking barefoot on desert landscaping, or having a picnic, or playing golf, soccer, or croquet, or sending children or pets to play where there are rocks and cactus all around, it's senseless and uncomfortable.
I certainly agree with you about mass transit improvements, light rail needs to be expanded into more suburban areas, commuter rail should be considered, bus service should always be on the increase, and all planned reliever freeways should be built.
I say as long as you don't get jumping cholla plant as many cacti as you want. Jumping cholla are the worst... for obvious reasons. Pretty sure jumping cholla is regulated too but I don't know actually. It would be nicer if we embraced more of where we live. There's also plenty of neighborhood parks in which to do those activities, and you already pay for those by simply existing here.
The problem is when it's done en masse and people do it for their front yards, when people almost never use their front yard and prefer using their backyards. I'm not saying no grass or foreign trees at all, but we should be considerate of what implications that can do on a large scale like Phoenix in a rare and unreplicated ecosystem. Not even the other deserts in this country are like the Sonora, it's a unique desert. It's a water concern more than anything.
A lot of houses in my particular neighborhood have grass lawns but all the grass is dead so it's this light tan/yellow disaster of a yard. I see this in most neighborhoods I drive through. This is rather unappealing, and they are better off xeriscaping. And it's most Phoenician homes.
As much as I love the North Central area, it's a good thing North Central and Arcadia are highly limited areas. We really can't afford too much of that, which is why Arizona no longer allows personal irrigated lawns unless your property was grandfathered in.
Pockets of grass lawns and trees really aren't going to be affecting weather when we sit in a ginormous desert with tons of freeways and cars and dirt and sun all over the place. It's sort of a nil point considering our increasingly rapid development and well, it's going to be getting hotter here regardless. It's like fighting for fractions of a penny.
If reducing heat is a concern--which it is don't get me wrong--I think we should be focusing more on increasing infill rather than sprawling more, and mass transit. Reducing pollution which has been really BAD lately will be keen on reducing heatwaves. Much more than what greenery will do.
While I agree with all your points, cultural excellence (or diversity) drives everything.
Culture drives politics which produces academic excellence and ecological excellence as our state government will respond to those in the majority who wants to fund state priorities like education and environmental issues. Local media is influenced by this as well as the people they hire will have a different culture.
The only thing that is stopping it is ideology and it's purely a psychological fight. The disdain for government in Arizona is unreasonable and ridiculous. People somehow trust businesses more than government but say nothing more than a ridiculous blanket statement rather than offering real solutions to problems Arizona has. Just look at the state legislature bickering about a 8(?) cent tax increase on gasoline. Hell, we should be increasing gasoline taxes by 75 cents to $1 and use all that revenue generated to invest heavily in alternative fuel vehicles, infrastructure, public transportation, and alternative energy. But nope, government wastes too much money can't do it. Have to let the free market do it (it won't.).
It starts with 1 thing: changing the politics and this needs a political revolution.
I'm sorry, but even though I like your post, I'm going to have to disagree with your first statement that equates cultural excellence with diversity. America - always patting itself on the back - likes to claim that everything good is due to diversity. However, obviously there are examples of cultural excellence where there's hardly any diversity. Like Japan.
Exactly. Its just a waste. If people want to waste water, then they should go somewhere with ample water sources. There's no need to waste our most precious resource in an area of the country that gets such little rain. Ugh, it irks me to no end seeing giant, green lawns, especially on some of those homes in PV.
We could name many things that are "water wasters", such as swimming pools, car washes, leaky plumbing pipes, taking extra long showers, etc. Seems funny how the ones who balk at greenery can't seem to live without their pools or squeaky clean cars. Aside from all that, agriculture consumes a tremendous amount of water compared to lawns & trees. Statistics have been posted here and all over the internet about how the Phoenix area is actually using less water these days despite the massive increase in population, and a big part of that is due to the reduction of agriculture in the area.
As far as the rainfall part, the Sonoran Desert is actually one of the wettest deserts on earth. Most desert regions report less than 4 inches of rain on average per year, but the Phoenix area gets anywhere from 7 to 10 inches per year ... and Tucson receives almost 12 inches annually. At this point, I don't see a need to worry all that much about the water situation. We're in pretty good shape as far as supplies.
We could name many things that are "water wasters", such as swimming pools, car washes, leaky plumbing pipes, taking extra long showers, etc. Seems funny how the ones who balk at greenery can't seem to live without their pools or squeaky clean cars.
Car washes use reclaimed and recycled water, and use minimal water as possible. The average lawn (or so I read somewhere) requires 10-12K gallons a month to water. Water is used daily on lawns, and several times. I don't know about you, but I only wash my car every 1-2 weeks, and often not at all during monsoon season due to all the dust and rain.
Car washes use reclaimed and recycled water, and use minimal water as possible. The average lawn (or so I read somewhere) requires 10-12K gallons a month to water. Water is used daily on lawns, and several times. I don't know about you, but I only wash my car every 1-2 weeks, and often not at all during monsoon season due to all the dust and rain.
Try 3x/week on most lawns and nowhere near 10k-12k for most lots in this city.
I like to use a rental property I own in Tempe as an example. Rather large lot, all grass with 4 trees.
Uses between 7k-9k/month in water for the entire house, with four people living in it. They say we use 1/2 of our water on landscaping in Phoenix. It would appear therefore that the lawn uses between 3.5-4.5k/month in water.
Water is set on 8 zones at 5min ea. It runs 3x per week. Grass is very green.
This is not an opinion on the value of grass, just that the amount stated was too high.
Try 3x/week on most lawns and nowhere near 10k-12k for most lots in this city.
I like to use a rental property I own in Tempe as an example. Rather large lot, all grass with 4 trees.
Uses between 7k-9k/month in water for the entire house, with four people living in it. They say we use 1/2 of our water on landscaping in Phoenix. It would appear therefore that the lawn uses between 3.5-4.5k/month in water.
Water is set on 8 zones at 5min ea. It runs 3x per week. Grass is very green.
This is not an opinion on the value of grass, just that the amount stated was too high.
I'm just going off what I read somewhere. If I find the time Ill try to get the article. I think it was on "water-use it wisely's" page now that I think about it.
We could name many things that are "water wasters", such as swimming pools, car washes, leaky plumbing pipes, taking extra long showers, etc. Seems funny how the ones who balk at greenery can't seem to live without their pools or squeaky clean cars. Aside from all that, agriculture consumes a tremendous amount of water compared to lawns & trees. Statistics have been posted here and all over the internet about how the Phoenix area is actually using less water these days despite the massive increase in population, and a big part of that is due to the reduction of agriculture in the area.
As far as the rainfall part, the Sonoran Desert is actually one of the wettest deserts on earth. Most desert regions report less than 4 inches of rain on average per year, but the Phoenix area gets anywhere from 7 to 10 inches per year ... and Tucson receives almost 12 inches annually. At this point, I don't see a need to worry all that much about the water situation. We're in pretty good shape as far as supplies.
I agree with everything above except the part about pools, they are a fun refreshing way to cool off from the heat, same with waterparks.
Imho many people wouldn't stick around during the summertime if pools didn't exist and they really don't need to be refilled too often, so as a whole they aren't a waste.
I agree with everything above except the part about pools, they are a fun refreshing way to cool off from the heat, same with waterparks.
Imho many people wouldn't stick around during the summertime if pools didn't exist and they really don't need to be refilled too often, so as a whole they aren't a waste.
I kinda wish people would get saltwater pools though, so mosquitos can't breed. I believe they can still breed even in the chlorine freshwater pools. Why are saltwater pools so rare? The only pool I have ever had was saltwater and I thought it was great.
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and of course, there are plenty of non-cacti plants that are native here as well outside of Palo Verde trees.
