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When it involves attracting new business & competitive jobs, outdoor recreation is very low on the list. Companies are looking mainly for financial incentives: namely, places with lower taxes (particularly income & corporate), as well as a reasonable overall cost of living. Just as important is the skill factor. Companies want knowledgeable, motivated, goal oriented employees who strive for excellence & will help the company obtain further success, and improve bottom line revenue. Of course, other important factors are what a city has to offer as far as education, medical services, transportation network, etc. If you think outdoor access is one of our "benefits" in this regard, you're badly mistaken.
I don't think anyone is making the claim that jobs and attracting businesses aren't the most important driver of a city's growth. Weather will rarely be a factor for companies making business decisions. But this thread was about the city's identity. And the weather, the outdoors, and the recreational aspects of Phoenix are still a big part of the city's identity. If you don't like humid weather or hurricanes, you're probably more likely to take a comparable job in Phoenix than Tampa. So Phoenix has significant lifestyle aspects going for it. And they can capitalize on those benefits so long as they continue to attract business investment and jobs.
Denver is one place where people are attracted because of the year-round outdoor opportunities, I only see a bit of that with Phoenix; I'm sure some come here in the cooler months to hike and bike when it's frigid or rainy in their home state.
Aside from summer heat, the climate of this area is a draw for many. We left COLO SPGS for here. The 7000 Ft elevation there meant less oxygen for my heart and I was tired of snow after 11 years of the stuff where I recall once shoveling snow at -10F and once had drifts up to my armpits. Ouch. I left the snow shovel in the garage when we left. Colorado's low tax and TABOR law meant little money for roads, the state is a mess to drive around. I'm not taking a vow of poverty to live anywhere. No hurricanes here, no earthquakes, no floods, no humidity, no massive bug infestations like the deep south and Florida and no massive Spring Break lunacy. We don't have huge waves of visitors like Daytona gets with NASCAR and other motor sports. Lots of doctors here too, especially all the swanky medical offices in Scottsdale, along with a branch of the Mayo Clinic. For sure there's a lot to draw people here, without the huge identity issues like NYC is for finance or L.A. is for entertainments.
We don't need an identity or a brand, we just need to offer solid values -- and good roads.
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Every big city has a short list of titles that people think about. When I think of PHX it instantly gets combined with the entire metro region. Some items that come to mind are Spring training, desert plus sunshine, sprawl, in-your-face somewhat controversial politics like Sherriff Joe, retirees, ASU, and golf vacations come to mind.
In actuality, outdoor activities and natural beauty aren't really thought about much. Well, unless you consider golf courses beautiful. This is especially amongst less-traveled visitors. I've found most people are surprised by our beautiful AZ lakes and close proximity to amazing views. Inside of an hour or two, there is a quick change of scenery that catches people off guard like the higher elevation towns.
We don't need an identity or a brand, we just need to offer solid values -- and good roads.
Agreed. I appreciated your thoughts about Denver. Yet, Denver metro has done a great job attracting brainpower because of its solid values. The Twin Cities metro area doesn't have a brand either. Well, lately people think of MPLS in the same light as Portland and lawlessness. Some assume the importance of low taxes in attracting new businesses. That certainly works. Yet, MN has some of the highest taxes in the nation. They have more Fortune 500 Companies than most cities: 17 to be exact. Add to that list another 5, massive private companies like Cargill. The businesses in the region are amazingly diverse. Also, even more, large companies were started in MN and have a tremendous presence but are no longer officially located in MN. Like Medtronics', Honeywell, Boston Scientific, Wells Fargo, Delta, and others.
This guy spent time trying to answer the question and wrote a book about the topic https://carlsonschool.umn.edu/news/p...t%2060%20years. He concluded that the flagship university added the managerial brainpower or human capital. I think ASU does the same. He explains that with the close proximity of the diverse corporate headquarters, professional managers tend to cross industry lines—a lot. In most places, it’s not unusual to switch jobs and switch companies—but in MN, top managers switch industries.
I'm also in your camp. Less-than-ideal PHX area K-12 focus has held back PHX metro. People with higher brainpower and motivation expect strong schools. I'm happy to see more K-12 PHX area school bonds pass over the last decade. Personally, I think that has helped a lot of these recent big expansions. As a reminder, AL, MS, WV, SC, NM, KY and LA (the state, not the town) have a combined total of 5 corporate headquarters. I think I know why ^^^.
While government waste is massive, realize that the tax and spend states that lead Fortune 500 headquarters are CA, NY, IL, MA, MI, NJ, and others. Yea, TX is now in the top three too. But frankly, they are not in the top 10 of friendly business climate https://taxfoundation.org/2023-state...climate-index/
The 10 best states for ideal business climate (low taxes) are:
1. Wyoming
2. South Dakota
3. Alaska
4. Florida
5. Montana
6. New Hampshire
7. Nevada
8. Utah
9. Indiana
10. North Carolina
Other than FL, the others on the list might need to spend a wee bit more on their infrastructure. Including K-12 education. Because low taxes by itself doesn't seem to cut it. IMO, keeping a state fiscally responsible is brilliant. When the pendulum swings too far the other way, companies start to leave (think CA, MI, IL). But spending too little is arguably a bigger mistake.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 03-08-2023 at 06:23 AM..
MN Born-n-Raised nailed it on the cities with brainpower. This is where I think Phoenix falls short.
Seattle is known for the high-tech industry and Bill Gates has spearheaded it. His foundation is donating millions for post-secondary education in Washington. https://ground.news/article/gates-fo...get-to-college This man is probably the most generous billionaire I can think of, and Phoenix could use more leaders like him.
Many people say college isn't necessary. If Phoenix needs an image adjustment, education is 1 area to do better. Most big companies that offer good pay want to be located where education is taken more seriously.
Many people say college isn't necessary. If Phoenix needs an image adjustment, education is 1 area to do better. Most big companies that offer good pay want to be located where education is taken more seriously.
As a reminder, Bill Gates didn't finish college. But I understand your POV. Still, going into the trades and starting a business could be extremely lucrative. I know many successful people in the trades. It's incredibly easy to make >>$100K in the trades.
As a reminder, Bill Gates didn't finish college. But I understand your POV. Still, going into the trades and starting a business could be extremely lucrative. I know many successful people in the trades. It's incredibly easy to make >>$100K in the trades.
Don't people in the trades usually get there by apprenticeship?Phoenix needs more big companies offering things like this.
Two areas Phoenix falls a little short - education and business opportunities. If we had better educational goals there would be a better selection of marketable people, and that's what companies want.
MN-Born-n-Raised, thank you for the kind words. Denver has managed a number of good things, like the Denver Tech Center about 10 miles south of downtown, as well as the scenery, year round outdoor sports and a great brewpub scene. Then there's Boulder, either a distant suburb or a small city in its own right. The university there is an absolute powerhouse, creating so much talent that major corporations set up shop there. The talent in that area prompted our Federal Government to set up not one, not two, but three National Laboratories there. IBM has been there a long time, Google came in a few years back to set up a campus of their own, and numerous other firms and startups inhabit the area, all of which has made home prices in Boulder shoot way up. Then there's Golden, CO, another distant suburb of Denver, at the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, with the Colorado School of Mines which attracts some of the best STEM students in the nation. I've been there to do so research on old railroad topics and found it really cool to visit.
Phoenix gets increasing good press for the universities here and the work they do. With all the chip fabs in the area we might someday be called Silicon Desert. About 25 years ago COLO SPGS had 5 chip fabs and was known as Silicon Mountain since they were at the foot of Pikes Peak.
I lived in COLO SPGS directly across the valley from the USAF Academy, in school district 20, aka D20. A lof of USAFA teachers and staff, both military and civilian, lived in our area, educated people who know the value of education. Where other districts refused to approve bond issues for school construction, we in D20 voted to raise our taxes to pay for both bond issues and increased teacher pay. D20 was always where realtors told people to buy homes if education mattered. I can only hope, and vote when I can, to get the kids in AZ the best educations we can provide them; the future of our state and nation depend on it -- and that includes 2-year junior colleges for the construction and blue collar trades so we can stop importing that labor from south of the border.
Low taxes are one thing, and do attract a lot of business to some states, but as you said low taxes aren't the only thing. In an increasingly technical world the future of high paying jobs largely rests in states you listed (CA, NY, IL, MA, MI, NJ,...), states with educated populations and the universities to nourish them.
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MN-Born-n-Raised, thank you for the kind words. Denver has managed a number of good things, like the Denver Tech Center about 10 miles south of downtown, as well as the scenery, year round outdoor sports and a great brewpub scene. Then there's Boulder, either a distant suburb or a small city in its own right. The university there is an absolute powerhouse, creating so much talent that major corporations set up shop there. The talent in that area prompted our Federal Government to set up not one, not two, but three National Laboratories there. IBM has been there a long time, Google came in a few years back to set up a campus of their own, and numerous other firms and startups inhabit the area, all of which has made home prices in Boulder shoot way up. Then there's Golden, CO, another distant suburb of Denver, at the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, with the Colorado School of Mines which attracts some of the best STEM students in the nation. I've been there to do so research on old railroad topics and found it really cool to visit.
Phoenix gets increasing good press for the universities here and the work they do. With all the chip fabs in the area we might someday be called Silicon Desert. About 25 years ago COLO SPGS had 5 chip fabs and was known as Silicon Mountain since they were at the foot of Pikes Peak.
I lived in COLO SPGS directly across the valley from the USAF Academy, in school district 20, aka D20. A lof of USAFA teachers and staff, both military and civilian, lived in our area, educated people who know the value of education. Where other districts refused to approve bond issues for school construction, we in D20 voted to raise our taxes to pay for both bond issues and increased teacher pay. D20 was always where realtors told people to buy homes if education mattered. I can only hope, and vote when I can, to get the kids in AZ the best educations we can provide them; the future of our state and nation depend on it -- and that includes 2-year junior colleges for the construction and blue collar trades so we can stop importing that labor from south of the border.
Low taxes are one thing, and do attract a lot of business to some states, but as you said low taxes aren't the only thing. In an increasingly technical world the future of high paying jobs largely rests in states you listed (CA, NY, IL, MA, MI, NJ,...), states with educated populations and the universities to nourish them.
Excellent summary! I grew up in D20 (proudly went to Air Academy High School) and you are spot on about the emphasis put on education in that district. That was one of our primary issues with the education system in Arizona. My wife was a teacher at the time, and we became so frustrated with how often bills that involved small tax increases that would go towards education were defeated because of the large retirement community that does not want to see their tax dollars increase. We now live in Douglas County south of Denver. It certainly has it's own problems, but we're pretty happy with the schools out here. We left Gilbert a couple of years ago and enjoyed their schools as well, but it seems like we took the opposite route that you did and left AZ to go back to CO.
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Yet, Denver metro has done a great job attracting brainpower because of its solid values. The Twin Cities metro area doesn't have a brand either. Well, lately people think of MPLS in the same light as Portland and lawlessness. 
Some assume the importance of low taxes in attracting new businesses. That certainly works. Yet, MN has some of the highest taxes in the nation. They have more Fortune 500 Companies than most cities: 17 to be exact. Add to that list another 5, massive private companies like Cargill. The businesses in the region are amazingly diverse. Also, even more, large companies were started in MN and have a tremendous presence but are no longer officially located in MN. Like Medtronics', Honeywell, Boston Scientific, Wells Fargo, Delta, and others.
Phoenix needs a Bill Gates.
If Phoenix needs an image adjustment, education is 1 area to do better. Most big companies that offer good pay want to be located where education is taken more seriously.
