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I don't think a university education is the only one, and I don't think most liberals would disagree (nor most conservatives). However, I think liberals and moderate conservatives both recognize it is a huge advantage. And it is.
For the sake of argument, I would say a huge benefit of a higher education is that you learn from others' experiences as well as your own. And most of us cannot compare to the greatest minds that have come down to us through history.
Now, can you learn that on your own, in between jobs, kids, etc.? Sure, but taking some time early in adulthood to learn about the Laws of Thermodynamics, the history of civilization, differential equations, statistical analysis and inference, the nature of the cell, evolution, ecology, plate tectonics, meteorology, atmospheric chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, psychology, architecture, political science, the Renaissance, literature and compositional writing, micro and macroeconomics, and the like sure seems valuable to being able to master life.
Perhaps the only political element of this is that liberals tend to not like to listen to carnival barkers talking about things like toxicology and global warming. They expect credible sources. A surprising number of conservatives seem to enjoy listening to people of dubious authority who stroke their egos. I would guess that the primary audience for such garbage are the people who lack enough formal education to see that it is pure fabrication in most cases. College educated people tend to end up as better critical thinkers, who are suspicious of and bored with trite answers to tough questions. Are there exceptions? Yes. Is it true in general? Absolutely.
I wouldn't want to see a doctor that wasn't well educated in what they do. I think it's one example of education being applied correctly to do something worthwhile for the educated person and society in general.
An example of ridiculous is a friend of mine that has a masters degree in something kind of odd that she's never used an likely never will. It seems to be only good for reminding people that she has it, talking about her college days, and occasionally talking down to people. After knowing her it is obvious that it is a degree in something she isn't that interested in herself. I think she went to college because her parents insisted, so she went and drank a lot and got this useless degree. People like this often enough end up financially behind people that don't have degree. Applying yourself to something that will be in demand but not end with a bunch of student loans can have it's advantages. If you're going to that kind of money for an education it's need to be one that you can use or it cripples you.
I'm sorry ... you're right, I shouldn't be nasty ... I should agree with the endlessly inane posts from the twilight zone.
You can disagree without being a nasty jackass about it. (I take it you're not a Christian?)
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First, you make an absurd claim that education and career have not been interminably bound like Siamese twins .... as if medical students really aren't attending medical school to become doctors .... or law school to become lawyers .... or engineering to become engineers ... etc., etc., etc.,. What's next? Bozo was a serious theatrical performer and not a clown?
Those are trade schools. Trade schools are clearly for trades. That's not what I took to OP to be talking about (and I clearly made the distinction in my post). I stand by my "absurd claim": undergraduate, liberal arts university educations were never intended to be vocational. They were intended as a means for intellectually driven people to challenge and improve themselves, to develop critical thinking skills, to indulge their curiosities about how the world works, and to provide an arena in which to challenge old ideas while cultivating new ones.
To motivated learners, an undergrad education teaches one how to think, reason, approach complex problems, and to ask questions. It teaches one to love the pursuit of knowledge. Such educations certainly lead to better vocations and the ability to succeed at professional trade schools. It's a nice side effect.
That most Americans now look at an undergrad education as simply vocational is the major reason our university system is becoming watered down and turns out so many uneducated people. Students there for vocational reasons just want a degree - they're not interested in learning. They want A's without having to do any work or learn anything. Many even feel entitled to that. Most of the people in our universities have no business being there to begin with - they end up leaving uneducated and ruin the system for the people who actually should be there. I think it's gross the system passes people like that though. I'd like to see about a 50% fail out rate - instead, at most schools, you get a B just for showing up.
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Then you offer the "example" of your best friend who put his PhD to good use by becoming an elementary school teacher as proof. The only thing that proves is that your best friend's PhD obviously wasn't in the field of math, finance or economics. The underlying, but even more practical issue is how that is akin to a person attaining an MD in order to teach First Aid and CPR at the local YMCA. It's really quite inane.
Again you bring up a trade school example really not relevant to my point. I agree, it doesn't make much sense to devote time and money to a vocational school, and then not enter that vocation. As to my friend, he was intently curious as to how life works, and he wanted to learn about it - he did. Now he wants to teach children - he does. He loves the learning he's done in his life, and he loves his job and feels he's making a positive impact in the lives of children. What the hell is wrong with that?
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Think for five seconds. Would you seek the professional qualification such as a PhD in Math in order to spend the next 20 or 30 years of your life teaching rooms full of 6 year olds "if you have 5 apples and you take two away, how many do you have left" .... day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade? I mean seriously ... don't you see a flaw or two in that plan?
Professional qualification? A PhD is a philosophy degree - not a vocational or professional one. And yeah, I might. I very much enjoy math (I've studied some very high level mathematics), an even if my job were gardener or elementary school art teacher, I'd love very much to have a PhD level understanding of math.
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The bottom line is, this new revised business school model produces exactly what we don't need more of ... crooks and thieves. And the same can be said of education in general, which is now solely focused on indoctrination. From K thru post graduate education, students are being taught what to think rather than how to think, which explains the massive levels of what appears to be irrational thought in our society. The irrationality is really not what is being thought ... it's what's being taught.
I don't agree with this entirely (it's a bit hyperbolic), but to a degree I do, and I also find it a problem. I attribute it to people treating post-secondary education as vocational - as a means to an end rather than something of intrinsic value. We've turned universities into nothing more that high school grades 13-16 and populated them with kids with little interest in learning who are only there to get through so they can get a better job and make more money.
I don't need some dumb degree for my job at the jar factory ( I make sure all the jars are upright) A bigshot fancy professor wouldn't last a nanosecond in my world. Apparently, there is some flash robot that can do my job, but I'll will believe it when I see it. I ain't dumb just because I haven't got no stupid degree.
I don't need some dumb degree for my job at the jar factory ( I make sure all the jars are upright) A bigshot fancy professor wouldn't last a nanosecond in my world. Apparently, there is some flash robot that can do my job, but I'll will believe it when I see it. I ain't dumb just because I haven't got no stupid degree.
You should get one. We need a jar factory professor to teach these kids how it's done in between drinking binges.
I tell you this, as for educational credentials, I'm least impressed with PhD's. It's a highly political credential, where one's fate is in the hands of others (committee, adviser, etc.) more than themselves. It's a kiss arse contest for the purpose of being allowed to join the PhD club, rather than proof of one's grand intellectual prowess or superior grasp of the subject matter. My ex had a PhD in communications ... and she never shut up. You could have a "conversation" with her for an hour and not get three words out of your mouth ... or at least not get three words heard. She could explain to you in the finest detail, every nuance of effective conversational skills ever contemplated by the great philosophers in history ... including the cutting edge techniques and skills of "listening", without ever pausing for air. That's no BS and no exaggeration.
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I understand. My ex liked the Dave Matthews Band. I hate the Dave Matthews band.
Perhaps the only political element of this is that liberals tend to not like to listen to carnival barkers talking about things like toxicology and global warming.
Hilariously sad .... carnival barkers, aye? Unbelievable. Better to listen to the voices of consensus opinion without rational analysis ... because so long as one defers to authority of "credible sources", one need not think for themselves. Only one flaw in that formula ... if one refuses to think for themselves, they have no chance of determining what sources are credible.
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Originally Posted by Fiddlehead
They expect credible sources. A surprising number of conservatives seem to enjoy listening to people of dubious authority who stroke their egos. I would guess that the primary audience for such garbage are the people who lack enough formal education to see that it is pure fabrication in most cases. College educated people tend to end up as better critical thinkers, who are suspicious of and bored with trite answers to tough questions. Are there exceptions? Yes. Is it true in general? Absolutely.
Nothing could be further from the truth when mainstream "credible sources" proclaim CO2 as a planetary threat, when the biological reality is that CO2 is just as critical for the continued existence of life on this planet as is oxygen, yet liberals latch on to that nonsense like pit bulls on a pork chop. Critical thinking indeed.
The common denominator here is consensus views are being uncritically accepted by masses of morons who think they are geniuses, with blind acceptance having replaced critical thought. Let's put fluoride in the water because it's good for us. Let's eliminate CO2 because it's a poison gas. Let's not get all worked up about radiation spewing from Fukushima, but instead let's work to eliminate plastic bags because they are so environmentally harmful.
The value of liberal intellectualism really is all around us. The only question is .. will we survive it.
What is the cost of that degree and how long will it take to pay off the student loan? I'm not trying to knock higher education, but it is part of the whole picture and too many people don't consider that before enrolling.
Maybe the parents went to college and have high paying jobs as a result. Paying for college for their children is not a financial hardhip for them, so the kids won't have any student loans.
Then there are some state schools where you can get a 4 year degree for approx $10,000-$15000 total tuition for all 4 years.
If you really don't want to spend money, the student can get a job after high school at an employer that offers tuition assistance as a benefit. This is still a pretty common benefit. This could result in free tuition or half price tuition for the student. The negative is you have to work full-time and go to school part-time. The positive is you get free or reduced cost schooling, get to earn valuable work experience while going to school and you aren't a broke student.
Don't forget the first $2000 per year of college is essentially free, via an IRS tax credit. This tax credit ends in 2012 but most likely will be extended. This means you get a $8000 discount on the $10,000-$15,000 total tuition for the cheaper state schools. This means your total tuition is $2000 -$7000 for the entire 4 years.
Hilariously sad .... carnival barkers, aye? Unbelievable. Better to listen to the voices of consensus opinion without rational analysis ... because so long as one defers to authority of "credible sources", one need not think for themselves. Only one flaw in that formula ... if one refuses to think for themselves, they have no chance of determining what sources are credible.
Nothing could be further from the truth when mainstream "credible sources" proclaim CO2 as a planetary threat, when the biological reality is that CO2 is just as critical for the continued existence of life on this planet as is oxygen, yet liberals latch on to that nonsense like pit bulls on a pork chop. Critical thinking indeed.
The common denominator here is consensus views are being uncritically accepted by masses of morons who think they are geniuses, with blind acceptance having replaced critical thought. Let's put fluoride in the water because it's good for us. Let's eliminate CO2 because it's a poison gas. Let's not get all worked up about radiation spewing from Fukushima, but instead let's work to eliminate plastic bags because they are so environmentally harmful.
The value of liberal intellectualism really is all around us. The only question is .. will we survive it.
I don't disagree that liberals can get group think sometimes. But your example stinks. Do you really thinkg that we think CO2 is a toxin? No, it is that it affects climate. And pumping a bunch of CO2 in the atmosphere does not seem wise. All this disingenuous hyperbole doesn't help. But I would still rather listen to NASA scientist talk about global warming than Rush Limbaugh.
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Motivations now clear
