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Give me an EXAMPLE of the sort of answer you're looking for, because you are certainly looking for some sort of answer. What exactly are you looking for? Statistics????? A hypothetical anecdote or two???? What exactly are you LOOKING FOR? I've already told you that tougher gun laws will lead to tougher punishments. Obviously this will mean more arrests, more incarcerations, etc. What are you LOOKING FOR in the way of an ANSWER???
I've already told you, I want to know how, after the entire United States is gun-free, you plan to keep it that way. Are you next going to advocate for building an impassable barrier around our borders? Stricter penalties would be great. I'm all for those now. I'm also for stricter background checks on firearms purchasers. However, those will only affect people who care about the law and the consequences of their actions. Now let's talk about criminals who, by definition, aren't going to care that what they are doing is illegal. How do you plan to keep criminals from obtaining illegal firearms from the Mexican cartels who currently supply them with illegal drugs?
I actually don't think you have an answer, and your wish to make guns illegal will, in fact, have the effect of turning our United States into a third world country that is overrun with gangland overlords. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, though, and letting you answer the question anyway.
I've already told you, I want to know how, after the entire United States is gun-free, you plan to keep it that way. Are you next going to advocate for building an impassable barrier around our borders? Stricter penalties would be great. I'm all for those now. I'm also for stricter background checks on firearms purchasers. However, those will only affect people who care about the law and the consequences of their actions. Now let's talk about criminals who, by definition, aren't going to care that what they are doing is illegal. How do you plan to keep criminals from obtaining illegal firearms from the Mexican cartels who currently supply them with illegal drugs?
I actually don't think you have an answer, and your wish to make guns illegal will, in fact, have the effect of turning our United States into a third world country that is overrun with gangland overlords. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, though, and letting you answer the question anyway.
I've already said it. Stronger laws bring stronger punishments. More important than how I would deal with mass guns coming through the border, since there aren't strong gun control laws yet on the books, why are you ASSUMING you know exactly what will happen?
More importantly, the very idea of living next door to people who are armed is SO f SAVAGE that I can't get past that. wtf? are ordinary people doing armed to the eyebrows??? If they're scared of being shot, it's because of the gun crime environment gun lovers have helped create through their persistence that they "NEED" guns as much as they need water. As I called it before, a chaotic hellhole. You can't get it through your head that we're in 2013 and ordinary people have a f arsenal in their home. WTF???
Let me ask you this, though, and this question is very important to me - when did you begin to grow so scared that you can't bear to be without firearms? I'm not being facetious at all. I'm perfectly sincere. What's your personal history behind the fear and the desperate need to be armed? I always wondered what makes gun loving Americans so terrified. I ask this (in case you're curious) because I lived abroad in countries with strong gun control and negligible gun crime, and let me tell you, it was a pleasure. Coming back here to Shootout-At-The-Ok-Corral, where ordinary people that should have NO guns, are armed to the teeth, is disconcerting, ridiculous, and, most important, terrifying.
I've already said it. Stronger laws bring stronger punishments. More important than how I would deal with mass guns coming through the border, since there aren't strong gun control laws yet on the books, why are you ASSUMING you know exactly what will happen?
That's your plan? Stronger laws? Cause it works real well with drugs, and don't forget people who actually commit crimes with guns.
If stronger laws were enough, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd just tighten up the laws on actual crimes.
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Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
More importantly, the very idea of living next door to people who are armed is SO f SAVAGE that I can't get past that. wtf? are ordinary people doing armed to the eyebrows??? If they're scared of being shot, it's because of the gun crime environment gun lovers have helped create through their persistence that they "NEED" guns as much as they need water. As I called it before, a chaotic hellhole. You can't get it through your head that we're in 2013 and ordinary people have a f arsenal in their home. WTF???
Let me ask you this, though, and this question is very important to me - when did you begin to grow so scared that you can't bear to be without firearms? I'm not being facetious at all. I'm perfectly sincere. What's your personal history behind the fear and the desperate need to be armed? I always wondered what makes gun loving Americans so terrified. I ask this (in case you're curious) because I lived abroad in countries with strong gun control and negligible gun crime, and let me tell you, it was a pleasure. Coming back here to Shootout-At-The-Ok-Corral, where ordinary people that should have NO guns, are armed to the teeth, is disconcerting, ridiculous, and, most important, terrifying.
Sounds like if anyone is fearful, it's you.
In every state that statistics have been gathered, it's been found that concealed carry permit holders have a significantly lower crime rate than the population in general. Are you talking about them, or the criminals?
As far as why do people want to be armed? Simple. America is a violent country with ten times the poverty and cultural issues that Europe has.
That's your plan? Stronger laws? Cause it works real well with drugs, and don't forget people who actually commit crimes with guns.
If stronger laws were enough, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd just tighten up the laws on actual crimes.
WHAT? Keep the tools for killing in their hands, but then punish the nutjobs when they actually USE THEM? Give me a break.
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Sounds like if anyone is fearful, it's you.
You bet I am. You gun lovers have turned this country into a gun nightmare.
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In every state that statistics have been gathered, it's been found that concealed carry permit holders have a significantly lower crime rate than the population in general. Are you talking about them, or the criminals?
What is it that you don't understand? You have turned this into a country where there are more guns than people, and it SHOWS in the gun crime. You know, it really burns me up that you gun lovers pretend not to get it. I know you can't be stupid, so there's only one other reason you keep with these bs arguments - you don't care, you want your guns regardless of what a nightmare it creates, you like it that way, and that's it baby.
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As far as why do people want to be armed? Simple. America is a violent country with ten times the poverty and cultural issues that Europe has.
And a NIGHTMARISHLY HIGH NUMBER OF GUNS. Stop making my argument for me. If you do indeed believe that poverty causes crime, and that this country is violent, why the F are you ALSO fighting to keep guns in the hands of everyone, including those people you are claiming are more than likely to use them? You make 0 sense, but then I think you already knew that.
I, on the other hand, don't believe Americans are more likely to kill, maime, or hurt people than any other country's people. I do, however, think it's the culture of guns that makes people more violent, the facility with which anyone can purchase a gun here licitly or illicitly, and the glamorization of Hollywood, all rolled up into one, that makes us a country of ridiculously high gun crime.
I've seen the blogs, forums, and websites of gun owners, and the pleasure they get in discussing how well this gun can kill, or what that bullet does. It's beyond sick. It's a violent group, and that's what you gun lovers are promoting - violence, in a country in which guns can be had easily, and where a lobby of gun manufacturers makes damned sure they're always easily available.
Blacks & Hispanics are the biggest group of victims of gun violence in America. They tend to live in areas with higher than normal gun violence and criminal activity. Their support of gun-control measures sits around ~70%
According to the Conservative talking point (mostly coming from safe, rural America), we need to increase access & # of guns so people are safe from the criminals, otherwise only criminals will be armed. Yet the people that actually have to deal w/ criminals & gun violence overwhelmingly disagree with that position, and support gun control.
Which side is more credible in this discussion on what would be the best solution to tackle gun violence? People that deal w/ gun violence at a significantly lower rate or people that deal w/ gun violence at a significantly higher rate
How about this... You people who live in bigger cities, need to work on your own problem and leave those of us in rural America alone. Why try and and legislate us when it's you that has the problem? And as to your original question.....
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Why do Blacks & Hispanics in major cities support gun control?
Rural areas have a greater gun death and gun accident problem
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Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88
How about this... You people who live in bigger cities, need to work on your own problem and leave those of us in rural America alone. Why try and and legislate us
For this reason:
[LEFT]Compared with urban settings, rural areas had a higher percentage of gun deaths from shotguns and rifles and a higher percentage from suicides and accidents ([/LEFT]P[LEFT] < .01). Two similarities, however, stand out as more important than the confirmed hypothesized differences: handguns accounted for more than 50% of gun deaths, and suicides accounted for nearly 70% of gun deaths in both urban and rural areas.[/LEFT] [LEFT]Medscape: Medscape Access[/LEFT] [LEFT][/LEFT] [LEFT][/LEFT]
I've already said it. Stronger laws bring stronger punishments. More important than how I would deal with mass guns coming through the border, since there aren't strong gun control laws yet on the books, why are you ASSUMING you know exactly what will happen?
I hate to tell you this, but there are strong gun control laws already on the books. The problem isn't a lack of laws, it's a lack of enforcement. If I purchase a firearm from a dealer, I am required to fill out form 4473. If I supply false information on that form, I am subject to a prison term of up to 10 years. However, as Joe Biden told the NRA during one of their meetings about gun control:
Quote:
“And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.â€
Could those background check laws be expanded to include private sales? Yes, and I'm actually all for that happening. Then again, shouldn't we start enforcing the existing laws before we go about expanding them or making new ones?
This isn't the only example of gun control legislation, but it is the best example of exactly how messed up our Administration's approach to gun control is.
I'm not assuming that I know what will happen, I'm looking at evidence from the United States and other countries and extrapolating likely results. The United States made it illegal to possess or distribute certain drugs. Those drugs are now a major source of income for Mexico. England and other European countries severely restricted the ownership of firearms. There is now a thriving black market in illegal firearms throughout Europe. While it's an overused expression, and possibly a bit trite, the term "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is fairly accurate. You're not going to keep criminals from obtaining firearms. It is not possible to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
More importantly, the very idea of living next door to people who are armed is SO f SAVAGE that I can't get past that. wtf? are ordinary people doing armed to the eyebrows??? If they're scared of being shot, it's because of the gun crime environment gun lovers have helped create through their persistence that they "NEED" guns as much as they need water. As I called it before, a chaotic hellhole. You can't get it through your head that we're in 2013 and ordinary people have a f arsenal in their home. WTF???
Good lord, where do you live? If your neighbors are going around "armed to the eyebrows" you need to relocate, fast. I carry a firearm when I'm going into areas that are dangerous, but I can't even imagine going around bristling with weapons. Take a picture of one of your neighbors that's "armed to the eyebrows." I want to see what that looks like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
Let me ask you this, though, and this question is very important to me - when did you begin to grow so scared that you can't bear to be without firearms? I'm not being facetious at all. I'm perfectly sincere. What's your personal history behind the fear and the desperate need to be armed? I always wondered what makes gun loving Americans so terrified. I ask this (in case you're curious) because I lived abroad in countries with strong gun control and negligible gun crime, and let me tell you, it was a pleasure. Coming back here to Shootout-At-The-Ok-Corral, where ordinary people that should have NO guns, are armed to the teeth, is disconcerting, ridiculous, and, most important, terrifying.
You are under the mistaken impression that I carry a firearm with me everywhere I go. While I do carry fairly often, it is not and never will be a 100% of the time thing for me. I happen to work in areas that are dangerous, and I was taught by the Boy Scouts and my family to be prepared. Part of that preparedness is making sure that I have the means to defend myself when I am in an area where an assault is likely. While I'm in fairly good shape and have had more than my fair share of fist-fights when I was younger (country boys tend to be direct, and I also spent some time as a bouncer in my early twenties), I don't have any intention of fighting off an attacker with my hands unless it is the absolute last resort. I have a wife and kids that I enjoy going home to every night, and I'm not about to take the chance that I won't get to do so in the interest of soothing the ruffled feelings of someone who doesn't even understand the 2nd Amendment, or to convey the illusion that being assaulted with a knife should result in a "fair" confrontation, mano a mano. So far, my firearm has kept me from being harmed or worse on two occasions, and it has been used in ZERO crimes.
WHAT? Keep the tools for killing in their hands, but then punish the nutjobs when they actually USE THEM? Give me a break.
You bet I am. You gun lovers have turned this country into a gun nightmare.
What is it that you don't understand? You have turned this into a country where there are more guns than people, and it SHOWS in the gun crime. You know, it really burns me up that you gun lovers pretend not to get it. I know you can't be stupid, so there's only one other reason you keep with these bs arguments - you don't care, you want your guns regardless of what a nightmare it creates, you like it that way, and that's it baby.
And a NIGHTMARISHLY HIGH NUMBER OF GUNS. Stop making my argument for me. If you do indeed believe that poverty causes crime, and that this country is violent, why the F are you ALSO fighting to keep guns in the hands of everyone, including those people you are claiming are more than likely to use them? You make 0 sense, but then I think you already knew that.
I, on the other hand, don't believe Americans are more likely to kill, maime, or hurt people than any other country's people. I do, however, think it's the culture of guns that makes people more violent, the facility with which anyone can purchase a gun here licitly or illicitly, and the glamorization of Hollywood, all rolled up into one, that makes us a country of ridiculously high gun crime.
I've seen the blogs, forums, and websites of gun owners, and the pleasure they get in discussing how well this gun can kill, or what that bullet does. It's beyond sick. It's a violent group, and that's what you gun lovers are promoting - violence, in a country in which guns can be had easily, and where a lobby of gun manufacturers makes damned sure they're always easily available.
Yeah well I support background checks. You're ranting and really not worth arguing with.
Keep blaming guns. It's delusional.
Offer facts and evidence, repeated assertions and hyperbole mean nothing to me.
Could those background check laws be expanded to include private sales? Yes, and I'm actually all for that happening. Then again, shouldn't we start enforcing the existing laws before we go about expanding them or making new ones?
No. Clearly what laws exist are not keeping the pervasiveness of guns from being the case here in the U.S., so obviously a LOT more needs to be done to discourage the gun culture, stop the ease with which guns can be purchased and owned, the admiration of violence, and the promotion of an ideal of males as a Clint Eastwood shooter type. The gun culture is responsible for most if not all of that.
Quote:
I'm not assuming that I know what will happen, I'm looking at evidence from the United States and other countries and extrapolating likely results. The United States made it illegal to possess or distribute certain drugs. Those drugs are now a major source of income for Mexico. England and other European countries severely restricted the ownership of firearms. There is now a thriving black market in illegal firearms throughout Europe. While it's an overused expression, and possibly a bit trite, the term "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is fairly accurate. You're not going to keep criminals from obtaining firearms. It is not possible to do so.
Thriving? I lived in Europe, and guns are not pervasive there. So where are all these guns you claim are crossing their borders and litter their landscapes as guns do here?
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Good lord, where do you live? If your neighbors are going around "armed to the eyebrows" you need to relocate, fast. I carry a firearm when I'm going into areas that are dangerous, but I can't even imagine going around bristling with weapons. Take a picture of one of your neighbors that's "armed to the eyebrows." I want to see what that looks like.
I live in the good U.S. of A., an advanced nation which is the talk of the world for all the gun crimes and shootings. There's no need for everyone to be carting around a gun. It's gotten out of control.
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You are under the mistaken impression that I carry a firearm with me everywhere I go. While I do carry fairly often, it is not and never will be a 100% of the time thing for me. I happen to work in areas that are dangerous, and I was taught by the Boy Scouts and my family to be prepared. Part of that preparedness is making sure that I have the means to defend myself when I am in an area where an assault is likely. While I'm in fairly good shape and have had more than my fair share of fist-fights when I was younger (country boys tend to be direct, and I also spent some time as a bouncer in my early twenties), I don't have any intention of fighting off an attacker with my hands unless it is the absolute last resort. I have a wife and kids that I enjoy going home to every night, and I'm not about to take the chance that I won't get to do so in the interest of soothing the ruffled feelings of someone who doesn't even understand the 2nd Amendment, or to convey the illusion that being assaulted with a knife should result in a "fair" confrontation, mano a mano. So far, my firearm has kept me from being harmed or worse on two occasions, and it has been used in ZERO crimes.
I never said you're a criminal, did I? I did say that you're part and parcel of the promotion of the idea that everyone should be armed, and that it's a normal way to live to own a gun. It's NOT normal for ordinary people to own guns. Guns are THE reason you're carrying a gun to protect yourself. Guns are THE problem. Guns are what need to be STOPPED.
As for you being a "good ole boy," that, too, is part of the violent mentality that promotes gun ownership. Perhaps if all I had done is lived here all my life and never lived abroad and knew nothing else, I'd share your mentality. Because that's not what happened, that's not my mentality any longer. Don't ask me to share it. I have seen what it's like to live without fear that some nutjob down the street shoots his wife out of anger, or that some nutjob takes a perfectly "legal" gun and shoot down children in schools. Do not expect me to be "OKAY" with that, or with the thinking that makes that sort of horror an everyday thing in the U.S.
No. Clearly what laws exist are not keeping the pervasiveness of guns from being the case here in the U.S., so obviously a LOT more needs to be done to discourage the gun culture, stop the ease with which guns can be purchased and owned, the admiration of violence, and the promotion of an ideal of males as a Clint Eastwood shooter type. The gun culture is responsible for most if not all of that.
Once again, the laws won't work if they aren't enforced. That is the situation we are currently in. In order for the law to be a deterrent, it needs to be enforced, after all.
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Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
Thriving? I lived in Europe, and guns are not pervasive there. So where are all these guns you claim are crossing their borders and litter their landscapes as guns do here?
Where are these firearms that are littering the landscape here? As for the illegal trade in Europe, this article would be a good place to start your education. It deals with England.
Here's an older article (2002) that deals with Germany, which has even stricter gun laws than Great Britain.
From the article:
Quote:
There are 7.2 million legally registered weapons in Germany in the hands of 2.3 million people, out of a population of 82 million. Police estimate that there are twice as many illegal firearms, many from eastern Europe.
Did you catch that estimate? Approximately twice the number of illegal guns as there are legal guns. And Germany has extremely strict gun laws. Seems to be working for them, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
I live in the good U.S. of A., an advanced nation which is the talk of the world for all the gun crimes and shootings. There's no need for everyone to be carting around a gun. It's gotten out of control.
You really need to get your facts straight. Not everyone is going around carrying firearms. The number that do are actually in the minority. As for it being out of control, if that were the case I think we'd be seeing higher rates of firearms violence rather than a steady decline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
I never said you're a criminal, did I? I did say that you're part and parcel of the promotion of the idea that everyone should be armed, and that it's a normal way to live to own a gun. It's NOT normal for ordinary people to own guns. Guns are THE reason you're carrying a gun to protect yourself. Guns are THE problem. Guns are what need to be STOPPED.
As per your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, in which the only people who should own firearms must belong to a militia (even though the SCOTUS has said otherwise) everyone who owns a firearm is a criminal. Personally, I don't believe that everyone should own a gun. I know quite a few people who shouldn't own one, actually. I believe that you should only own a gun if you accept the fact that the ownership of that gun brings added responsibility to ensure the safety of the people around you. This includes training in use and safety, as well as training in when and how a firearm should be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
As for you being a "good ole boy," that, too, is part of the violent mentality that promotes gun ownership. Perhaps if all I had done is lived here all my life and never lived abroad and knew nothing else, I'd share your mentality. Because that's not what happened, that's not my mentality any longer. Don't ask me to share it. I have seen what it's like to live without fear that some nutjob down the street shoots his wife out of anger, or that some nutjob takes a perfectly "legal" gun and shoot down children in schools. Do not expect me to be "OKAY" with that, or with the thinking that makes that sort of horror an everyday thing in the U.S.
First of all, your use of the "good ole boy" term as a derogatory statement is both inaccurate and insulting. It is not the typical "good ole boy" (by which I'm assuming you are referring to someone from the country, due to context) who uses a firearm in a crime. For the most part, people who live in the country are far more respectful of others than those who live in cities, and firearms are not just something they carry for self-defense, but are a tool that they use to put food on the table.
Secondly, I'm far from what you would consider a "good ole boy" judging from your comment. I was raised in the country, but have spent the majority of my adult life in the city. The majority of my friends are not white, are highly educated, and are actually very liberal. Personally, I'm fairly well educated and I'm very much a liberal on social issues. About the only thing left from my country upbringing are the ideas of personal responsibility, self reliance, and straightforwardness. I believe that any form of violence should be a last resort, and that includes the use of a firearm.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to change your mind when it comes to your position on firearms. You couldn't be farther from the truth. I am merely pointing out the logical inconsistencies in your arguments so that others realize how far away from reality you are. I actually don't care that you hate guns, America, or the 2nd Amendment. I just like to have fun with people who react emotionally rather than logically when they are confronted with a question that they can't answer.
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So here's a question for you.
