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The "agricultural temporary visas" seem to be a only a certain percentage of temporary visas. While the temporary workers definitely pick crops ( since they need the approval of those visas from their employers,) the question is how many of them are hired and how many of them are staying with those jobs till the end of the season?
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There are many legal immigrants that start out washing dishes, etc.
The key word here is "start out." And that goes for people with a plan how to progress to something "bigger and better." They don't intend to keep this kind of jobs for long then.
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Our jobs pay more than they would get in their own countries also and just moving to the USA is a bonus to them.
But the COL is much higher as well, increasingly so.
So the "bonus of moving to America" is only "bonus" if they manage ( yet again) to move to something "bigger and better."
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Americans have always done manual labor jobs in this country also.
That is true.
I live in the Mid-West, and I see plenty of hard-working White Americans, going through the grinder of labor jobs, "washing dishes" including.
The "agricultural temporary visas" seem to be a only a certain percentage of temporary visas. While the temporary workers definitely pick crops ( since they need the approval of those visas from their employers,) the question is how many of them are hired and how many of them are staying with those jobs till the end of the season?
The key word here is "start out." And that goes for people with a plan how to progress to something "bigger and better." They don't intend to keep this kind of jobs for long then.
But the COL is much higher as well, increasingly so.
So the "bonus of moving to America" is only "bonus" if they manage ( yet again) to move to something "bigger and better."
That is true.
I live in the Mid-West, and I see plenty of hard-working White Americans, going through the grinder of labor jobs, "washing dishes" including.
If they aren't being hired then it is the employers fault. Those visas are readily available and unlimited so I don't what you are getting at here. If the workers aren't staying till the end of the season then where are they going and why?
There will always be a need for starter workers and we have them via continued legal immigration and our young adults entering the work force for the first time or for less educated Americans who need to supplement their incomes. We have no shortage of American workers willing to do doing manual labor jobs for a fair wage.
For most immigrants, moving here is their main objective since we are a desirable nation to move to.
Don't know if your last sentence was meant to be sarcasm or not but it doesn't fly. Why are white Americans always pin pointed in these discussions? Hmm.
Not denying the issue you point out about illegal immigration or unassimilated immigrants... but the title of this is just "multiculturalism and diversity" so why are you only focused on illegal diversity versus the legitimate kind? In my corporate company, we have a fair amount of diversity. Pretty sure none are illegal or "unassimilated" - they all speak English just fine and I don't remember the last time someone yelled a racist slur randomly so no division as far as I can see. This is what I was thinking about when I read the title of this thread.
This whole debate veered off in another direction. It's not unusual. I'm not just focused on illegal aliens but legal immigrants that won't assimilate into our society either. There does that clear it up for you? If you had followed the several pages under this topic you'd see what I'm talking about.
Of course it makes a difference! You're argument was that illegal immigration costs us billions. You didn't say legal immigration. You said illegal. Then you present an article from a biased source and claim it as fact. If I sourced an article from La Raza that stated that on a cost-benefit basis, the U.S. earns more than it spends on illegal immigration, you would say I'm biased right?
What bias do I have? Of course I'd rather Americans work than migrants because Americans pay more taxes which in turn pay for roads, healthcare, and social security.
Oh so because sharecropping isn't a career path...is only a season job that Americans shouldn't work those jobs? Should my tax dollars pay for someone who's unwilling to move to a rural community where when farmers are crying out for help? Sure! Let's get those brown people across the border to do the dirty work while we work in our white shirts and blue slacks in air-conditioned offices.
you say: Construction used to pay a liveable wage it doesn't anymore since illegal aliens along with their greedy employers reduced those wages. Just name one job sans crop picking that Americans aren't willing to do for a fair wage and who do you think were doing them before millions of cheap illegals flooded our border?
So undocumented workers just strolled over and asked an employer to pay them pennies on the dollar? You can't blame undocumented workers for wage depression. If an employer can pay me $3/hr, he'll do it. It's how business and markets work. How else you think the real estate market is out of control? Because there are people who will pay $1M for a 400sq ft studio in NYC.
So let's define Americans for a moment...because prior to undocumented workers crossing the Mexican border, African-Americans held many of the cooking and cleaning jobs; not so sure about construction. You think they were paid fair wages? Absolutely not!
Americans are not willing to work as porters, cooks, dishwashers, cleaners in hospitality. How do I know? I see it all the time in any city I go and so do you.
I'll be happy to return to multiculturalism...we've made our points!
You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the American worker or how illegal aliens along with their greedy employers caused them to lose their jobs. I can't debate with anyone who is so ill-informed on that subject and who doesn't seem to care about our laws of which both the employers and foreigners are supposed to abide by and so are Americans in general. I will no longer debate with someone who uses PC language to describe law breakers either. As I said, to another poster I'm glad they have an ignore feature on this forum. Buh, bye.
Agreed. I'll take your advice and move back on topic. Cheers!!!!!
Agree there is a certain amount of 'overlap' for sure, however here on C-D forums there's an entire sub-forum entitled 'Illegal Immigration'. Granted, I don't go there very often,
You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the American worker or how illegal aliens along with their greedy employers caused them to lose their jobs. I can't debate with anyone who is so ill-informed on that subject and who doesn't seem to care about our laws of which both the employers and foreigners are supposed to abide by and so are Americans in general. I will no longer debate with someone who uses PC language to describe law breakers either. As I said, to another poster I'm glad they have an ignore feature on this forum. Buh, bye.
You source biased articles, you throw #s around like confetti without context, and you think you're an expert on this topic.
Fair wage! What is that? $7.50/hr?
PC language? So because I choose to refer to people humanely, I'm the bad guy? Yeah, you're making America Great Again! Let me take some pills for the unknown retired patriot who's going to ignore me on this ridiculous forum. I can't take the pain
'Individuals, business owners, & corporations should be able to employ anyone they please - anything less is government overreach.
Individuals, business owners, corporations should be able to serve, or not serve, anyone they please - guided solely by the marketplace & solely constrained by competition, anything else is government overreach. & so on.'
~from a notoriously familiar axiomatic ideology
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Originally Posted by erasure
^
Then this I suppose becomes the core of a problem, a dilemma, what America REALLY is - a nation, or just some "free zone" for enterprise?
The "anti-multiculturalism" ppl would love to believe apparently that it's a NATION, yet corporations believe otherwise, and keep bringing more of the "multiculturalism" in.
I don't think it's just the 'anti-multiculturalism people' nor is it just the corporations, the underlying or root issue is also with those who have bought into the internally-conflicted ideology all 'hook, line & sinker'-like. All I'm suggesting is that it'd be helpful if folks would 'think twice'.
What difference does it make what welfare that illegal use and how they are able to attain it? The fact remains is that they cost us $113 billion a year. Their anchors (which wouldn't have happened had they not been illegally on our soil) provides them with a multitude of government benefits.
The fact that FAIR wants to reduce legal immigration does not negate the facts that they have cited about illegal aliens. They didn't just pull the stats out of thin air either. It's your biasness that doesn't allow you to see the facts or accept them. WTH does the race of the people of that site have to do with anything? Wanting legal immigration reduced for the sensible reasons that they stated does not make them anti-immigration either.
I've already addressed the agricultural industry. There are unlimited visas for legal foreign workers. It's not a career job for Americans and is only seasonal work. Many Americans don't live in rural areas either. So why repeat yourself? Construction used to pay a liveable wage it doesn't anymore since illegal aliens along with their greedy employers reduced those wages. Just name one job sans crop picking that Americans aren't willing to do for a fair wage and who do you think were doing them before millions of cheap illegals flooded our border? Go ahead lie to yourself! You're the one who is spouting anti-American nonsense in here and I don't knowingly support these greedy employers or their illegal hires.
Now why don't we get back on topic which is discussing multi-culterism and diversity. It has nothing to do with the issue of illegal immigration!!
You said:
who do you think were doing them before millions of cheap illegals flooded our border?
I don't knowingly support these greedy employers or their illegal hires.
It's better if you can understand what you are really addressing and what one is dealing with... at the end of this post you will see it more clearly if you grasp the context of commentary.
Wow..... in part....so now you are talking about the era of the late 1900 and 1960 when SEGREGATION relegated black people to these jobs.... other than some sectors had migrant workers such as the vast industry of agriculture in places like California, whom at one time had a huge economy. (but,that's another subject it and of itself)
Across American, a lot of the jobs were done by minorities. I'd like you to read what MLK said at the Speech at Selma, which many white people could not and would not hear because of their bias and race anguish (hate)..... so to speak!!! see quoted text
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The Strange Career of Jim Crow, clearly points out, the segregation of the races was really a political stratagem employed by the emerging Bourbon interests in the South to keep the southern masses divided and southern labor the cheapest in the land. You see, it was a simple thing to keep the poor white masses working for near-starvation wages in the years that followed the Civil War. Why, if the poor white plantation or mill worker became dissatisfied with his low wages, the plantation or mill owner would merely threaten to fire him and hire former Negro slaves and pay him even less. Thus, the southern wage level was kept almost unbearably low.
~~~~~~~~~~~
the southern aristocracy took the world and gave the poor white man Jim Crow. He gave him Jim Crow. And when his wrinkled stomach cried out for the food that his empty pockets could not provide, he ate Jim Crow, a psychological bird that told him that no matter how bad off he was, at least he was a white man, better than the black man. And he ate Jim Crow. And when his undernourished children cried out for the necessities that his low wages could not provide, he showed them the Jim Crow signs on the buses and in the stores, on the streets and in the public buildings. And his children, too, learned to feed upon Jim Crow, their last outpost of psychological ob
So the illegal immigrant became the new ethnic version to use.
The problem is the poor whites never figured it out.... they directed their contempt at black people and now they direct it at the illegal immigrant... but the real orchestrate of this is the well to do and the wealthy.
If you note what Erasure and GregW said... they outlined the pursuit of a level of peasantry, and that was the go to ideal, once there could be no more "supposedly legalized slavery".... but... it remained in a format, and it not only encompassed blacks it too encompasses the descendants of the white indentured servant, who make up the poor and working poor whites of today
Because when the historical factors are factored, the Indentured servant was paid a small % less than what it cost the slavery to house and feed and clothe a slave... and translated into today's society... Minimum wage is approximately what it would cost in "today's income ratio, to "house and feed and clothe a slave or pay and indentured servant".... and the cycle just repeats itself....
The nature of the SERF Mentality did not vanish from many who came here from such status, it was passed along in folklore edicts " it was the official order" that was formatted and spread from generation to generations, that's why the poor whites will not give their attention or focus to see the wealthy as being those who orchestrate the system to keep it in as relative terms as in being "the same".
Example:
Corporate CEO pay themselves and their Executive at the same rate the Slaver's paid themselves and their top team. Companies now count their money in $Billions and 10's of Billions... no different than the Slaver's counted their money in $100's of thousands and Millions and $10's of millions and the other Industrialist of the Old counted their money in $10's and $100's of Millions.....
Trump now has taken a page from the first acts tried by the Confederate States Post Civil War... he now is talking about " Making people "APPRENTICES'... One should read about what was an Apprentice during the Post Civil War Confederate States. (( “Apprentice" laws assigned young African-Americans to "guardians," who were often their former owners, and dictated that they should work without wages in return for their board and clothing.)).
Trump thinks in these terms as well: His TV Show "The Apprentice" used Actors that had fallen out of favor and lost their once upon a time fortunes, and he made mockery of them, and dismissed them with extreme belligerence.... and people took the show to be a hit.. never understanding that it was based on "denigrating people whom were once revered in the entertainment industry in the previous generation". he handled his show, no different than the Former Slave owners handled former Slave in the new role as "Apprentices".
Nothing much has changed... School is now being disbanded by Devos, University is Priced out of the range of the working poor and certainly out of range of the poor, and if the working poor do go, they are indentured with excruciating debt, for degree that have no available usage... so they rarely work even close to the area of their claimed degree label. He has Sessions now, Promoting the Stiffest Penalty for the smallest crime, which is no different than how former slaves were treated by the law.
In essence its not much more than the Rise of the Confederacy... and people just fear seeing it for what it is. The Health Care bill is a prime example... If you are sick, or aged, the program is set up to be prohibitive for you to access, so ... if you can't earn money for the wealthy, there is nothing for you, and turning Medicaid over to state and telling them, any excess monies they can use it as they wish, is a way of telling them, to constructively deny benefits and service to the most needed... and only use it for those that might be rehab'ed to return to work 'quickly"... because now they want "time limits on benefits"... and when the time expires, then what? they are left to their own devise.. which likely leads to means to get the stiff penalties from the law and incarcerated. Remember. The 13th Amendment, said; Slavery was abolished EXCEPT.. WHEN ONE IS CONVICTED OF A CRIME.
When people realize that the Confederacy never cede themselves to defeat, they simply modified their approach and found means to take their war into the Government Administration, and now they fell they've Seized the Government and they are dismantling it, and pushing anything to privatization and States Rights.... Look at the Administration Members Trump chose.. it tells its own story.
So the illegal immigrant became the new ethnic versionto use.
The problem is the poor whites never figured it out.... they directed their contempt at black people and now they direct it at the illegal immigrant... butthe real orchestrate of this is the well to do and the wealthy. And the same nature of disregard is against given to the blacks... as was during the era of post slavery. .... ((To the Southerners (Confederates) these laws seemed to be only the necessary protection of the white population against the deeds of crime and violence to which a large, wandering, unemployed body of blacks might be tempted.))....
It's all a replay of the past, under a Morphed Program... "Confederate Policies in Continuance" and it won't change until working poor and poor whites awaken, as well as black and immigrants, legal and illegal... understand what they are working with and what they are up against.
There is not going to be any Wall... and there is not going to be any mass deportation of illegals.. that was the baited hook - with a rubber bait...to lure in the unsuspecting working poor whites and poor whites... Republican showed that clearly with their first version of the Health Care Bill which was pure "evil" !!!! still people have not figured it out..... It tells a story, the same as "the lie"... "I won't touch medicare, medicaid, and Social Security'.....
Hopefully you can see the picture better....
Last edited by Chance and Change; 06-27-2017 at 07:06 PM..
If they aren't being hired then it is the employers fault. Those visas are readily available and unlimited so I don't what you are getting at here. If the workers aren't staying till the end of the season then where are they going and why?
What I am saying is that probably there is not enough of people willing to work on those "temporary visas."
"Big business ( agribusiness including) likes to have big pools of labor handy; when one worker quits, another one is ready to replace him/her - that kind of thing. The temp visas might not supply adequate amount of people - that's what I am saying.
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There will always be a need for starter workers and we have them via continued legal immigration and our young adults entering the work force for the first time or for less educated Americans who need to supplement their incomes. We have no shortage of American workers willing to do doing manual labor jobs for a fair wage.
That's how YOU see it fit. But not necessarily the employer.
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For most immigrants, moving here is their main objective since we are a desirable nation to move to.
"Most immigrants" nowadays are people from the third world countries, which brings us back to the "multi-culturalism and "diversity" issue...
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Don't know if your last sentence was meant to be sarcasm or not but it doesn't fly. Why are white Americans always pin pointed in these discussions? Hmm.
'Individuals, business owners, & corporations should be able to employ anyone they please - anything less is government overreach.
Individuals, business owners, corporations should be able to serve, or not serve, anyone they please - guided solely by the marketplace & solely constrained by competition, anything else is government overreach. & so on.'
~from a notoriously familiar axiomatic ideology
I don't think it's just the 'anti-multiculturalism people' nor is it just the corporations, the underlying or root issue is also with those who have bought into the internally-conflicted ideology all 'hook, line & sinker'-like. All I'm suggesting is that it'd be helpful if folks would 'think twice'.
So in other words you're for open borders and anyone should be able to just walk right in and snatch a job because the employer wants to hire them even if they are here illegally? Are you serious?
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