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If tiny Holland is about to split up among Dutch and French speakers, if Canada almost split, if UK will soon split, if Yugoslavia had a civil war, if the Roman Empire split up, if USSR split up, then there is no hope anywhere.
I don't think a UK split is likely, although it is hard to imagine this level of independence rhetoric from Scotland pre-Brexit. Brexit: the UK's majority vote to split with the EU, is the most likely source of any fractures within the Kingdom itself. The source is not the multi-cultural or multi-ethnic nature of the UK. And I continue to think that the greatest risks stemming from Brexit are: 1) major economic ramifications causing social unrest, and 2) a new spark of conflict in Northern Ireland--more likely if there is something like a hard border between N. Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
The Netherlands are not splitting. Switzerland is not split. There are huge regional culture differences in France, Spain, Germany, and Italy--yet none are splitting. China has many languages, religions, cultures, and ethnic groups, yet it is not splitting. Canada is not splitting.
The western hemisphere is littered with multi-cultural and multi-ethnic nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty
America. Various others in Europe and North America.
Though, this depends on what you mean by "success." America is in bad shape currently; chalking that up to "diversity" would be... stupid. Let's call it what it is. Trillions in debt, political divisiveness, and denial of constitution frameworks aren't the result of blacks, Jews, Muslims, whites, and Hispanics all living in the same geographical space.
So if you think success means a civilization has existed in harmony endless... well, find me an ethnically homogenous society that's withstood the test of time. Japan? Maybe. Again, it depends; are major shifts in power considered collapse? We usually view it as such.
America is not in bad shape. But I agree with you that our challenges are not the result of diversity. Japan is an ethnically homogeneous society, but when would you say that it has been more harmonious than its more diverse counterparts? When it brutally invaded Manchuria? When its economy suffered a generation of stagnation?
If tiny Holland is about to split up among Dutch and French speakers, if Canada almost split, if UK will soon split, if Yugoslavia had a civil war, if the Roman Empire split up, if USSR split up, then there is no hope anywhere.
1) It's Belgium that's split between Dutch and French speaking parts.
2) Scottish independence is far from certain. Eventually the UK is going to move towards a more federal system like the Netherlands and that will likely considerably reduce support for Scottish independence.
3) The 1995 referendum in Quebec was illegal. The only way for Quebec to legally become independent (or for Canada to become a republic) is if 2/3 of the provinces agree by a 2/3 margin. Quebec separatism, like Canadian republicanism is a doomed cause.
We are all familiar with the phrase "diversity is our strength." I would like to know what the historical basis for that is. Sure, US has always been "multi-cultural" but all of those cultures came from the same race/geographic area and were always forced to assimilate into one culture. Where did the idea that a society made up roughly equally of fiver different races would be better than a county of only one race?
I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to learn. Thanks!
EVERY SINGLE LARGE NATION IN HISTORY has been multicultural - with NO EXCEPTIONS.
Did everyone in the Roman Empire speak the same language?
Did they have the same religion?
How about the same music?
Same clothes?
Same food?
Same traditions?
How about in the British Empire?
What about the Chinese Empire (pick any dynasty)?
The Persian Empire?
The Inca Empire?
The Aztec Empire?
The list goes on and on and on.
Every large nation has been multicultural.
Every...single...one.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
EVER.
EVERY SINGLE LARGE NATION IN HISTORY has been multicultural - with NO EXCEPTIONS.
Did everyone in the Roman Empire speak the same language?
Did they have the same religion?
How about the same music?
Same traditions?
How about in the British Empire?
What about the Chinese Empire (pick any dynasty)?
The Persian Empire?
The Inca Empire?
The Aztec Empire?
The list goes on and on and on.
Every large nation has been multicultural.
Every...single...one.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
EVER.
Ken
You just conflated empires with nations. You're basically right, America is not a nation post WWII but an empire
You just conflated empires with nations. You're basically right, America is not a nation post WWII but an empire
ANY nation that is big, is big because it took land from someone else. It wasn't empty. Someone else lived there. That is true of the US and every other large nation throughout history. Call them whatever you want.
America is not in bad shape. But I agree with you that our challenges are not the result of diversity. Japan is an ethnically homogeneous society, but when would you say that it has been more harmonious than its more diverse counterparts? When it brutally invaded Manchuria? When its economy suffered a generation of stagnation?
At the very least, America is not in good shape. It's been better and is far worse than it could/should be. It's, of course, still among the best places to live on the planet.
As for Japan, I'm not necessarily asserting that Japan is an example of what the OP was looking for. It was more to point out the futility of that question. The Roman Empire collapsed. This is a fact. It was also quite ethnically diverse, though different ethnic groups tended to be isolated and not intermixed. Either way, Rome collapse. But was it successful? Most would probably still say 'yes,' but then, what counts as an unsuccessful society? The Roman republic succumbed to tyranny and became an empire, was prone to severe turbulence, split in two, and the Western half (what most view Rome as anyway) fell from outside invaders. When put like that, it's not a success. But, Roman republican institutions also serve as the model for modern western democracies and the society itself made major achievements in terms of advancement of the human race.
To condense that all down: I think the OPs question is mostly unanswerable. It's an interesting thought experiment, and I'm sure we call could learn something by thinking about it, but I think the OP wanted to make a final point, and I don't see how that's going to happen.
EVERY SINGLE LARGE NATION IN HISTORY has been multicultural - with NO EXCEPTIONS.
Did everyone in the Roman Empire speak the same language?
Did they have the same religion?
How about the same music?
Same clothes?
Same food?
Same traditions?
How about in the British Empire?
What about the Chinese Empire (pick any dynasty)?
The Persian Empire?
The Inca Empire?
The Aztec Empire?
The list goes on and on and on.
Every large nation has been multicultural.
Every...single...one.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
EVER.
Ken
These are all empires. So basically we are empire with all the bad aspects and none of the things that make empires rich. We have military bases all over the world, protect nations all the while many of them have higher quality of life and run trade deficits at our expense.
Other countries can afford to focus on trade, their own infrastructure, they have huge social programs because they contribute so little to their own defense, America is the worlds policeman yet almost every city in this country is a dump filled with third rate mass transit, terrible train system nationwide, armies of homeless people, crime,etc.
We can patrol the worlds seas and skis,amazing prism and intelligence gathering systems,state of the art awac radar planes, on and on with the greatest military in the world bu we cant protect our own borders!!!!!
Not to mention just 19 guys could slip into america and kill 3,000 and main and burn 10,000 but we are the worlds policeman?
At the very least, America is not in good shape. It's been better and is far worse than it could/should be. It's, of course, still among the best places to live on the planet.
As for Japan, I'm not necessarily asserting that Japan is an example of what the OP was looking for. It was more to point out the futility of that question. The Roman Empire collapsed. This is a fact. It was also quite ethnically diverse, though different ethnic groups tended to be isolated and not intermixed. Either way, Rome collapse. But was it successful? Most would probably still say 'yes,' but then, what counts as an unsuccessful society? The Roman republic succumbed to tyranny and became an empire, was prone to severe turbulence, split in two, and the Western half (what most view Rome as anyway) fell from outside invaders. When put like that, it's not a success. But, Roman republican institutions also serve as the model for modern western democracies and the society itself made major achievements in terms of advancement of the human race.
To condense that all down: I think the OPs question is mostly unanswerable. It's an interesting thought experiment, and I'm sure we call could learn something by thinking about it, but I think the OP wanted to make a final point, and I don't see how that's going to happen.
Well, your definition of "success" is an impossible goal. You said that Rome was not a success because it "fell". By that line of thinking the life of everyone who's ever lived was a "failure" because they eventually died. Everything changes all the time and nations/empires - like people - are born, grow and develop, survive for a time, and die. Considering the length of the Roman Empire's existence (almost 2,000 years in it's various forms) and it's legacy of language, culture, religion, engineering and art that echoes even today. it's an impressive record - one we're not even close to yet. So, I'd say that Rome was one heck of a success.
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 08-22-2017 at 02:35 PM..
These are all empires. So basically we are empire with all the bad aspects and none of the things that make empires rich. We have military bases all over the world, protect nations all the while many of them have higher quality of life and run trade deficits at our expense.
Other countries can afford to focus on trade, their own infrastructure, they have huge social programs because they contribute so little to their own defense, America is the worlds policeman yet almost every city in this country is a dump filled with third rate mass transit, terrible train system nationwide, armies of homeless people, crime,etc.
We can patrol the worlds seas and skis,amazing prism and intelligence gathering systems,state of the art awac radar planes, on and on with the greatest military in the world bu we cant protect our own borders!!!!!
Not to mention just 19 guys could slip into america and kill 3,000 and main and burn 10,000 but we are the worlds policeman?
Um, America has become the richest, most powerful nation the world has ever seen - with a general standard of living unlike anything in human history before it. In regards to foreign commitments, that's been true of every major power throughout history. Once you become large and powerful you have interests elsewhere and therefor commitments to protect those interests - welcome to the big leagues. Every major power throughout history has had the same thing happen - EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's the price of power and influence.
Um, America has become the richest, most powerful nation the world has ever seen - with a general standard of living unlike anything in human history before it. In regards to foreign commitments, that's been true of every major power throughout history. Once you become large and powerful you have interests elsewhere and therefor commitments to protect those interests - welcome to the big leagues. Every major power throughout history has had the same thing happen - EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's the price of power and influence.
Ken
Visit asia and land in narita airport or take high speed trains through places like japan korea, or places in Eruope like switzerland etc and compare that to some dumps in america like landing in laguardia airport in nyc or the armies of homeless in san francisco. American cities are terrible.
Most of the lowest crime highest rated nations are very tough to immigrate to and are pretty racially uniform, japan, south korea,switzerland , Scandinavian countries(before the refugee invasion). If america wants to get back to the 80% white numbers we had before 1980 and be very selective about who we allow to immigrate here that is fine by me
Even liberal Australia is tough it is tough to immigrate to.In switzerland it is very hard to gain citizenship, . you might be able to get a “B” visa if you are in some field that is needed like IT, biotech, medical doctors and nurses etc and if you speak one of the official languages.
"Of the 2 million foreigners in Switzerland, 1.6 million were of European origin, and less than 200,000 were Asian or African in origin. I could not find solid statistical breakdowns of the Swiss population by ethnicity, but I believe the foreign-born numbers and an educated guess can tell us that there are very few non-white people living in Switzerland. Further, religiously, about 70% of Swiss people practice some form of Christianity, 22% are unaffiliated, 5% are Muslim and the remainder is comprised of Judaism and other religions. In all, about 92% of Switzerland practices Christianity"
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