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This is such an emotion-laden topic that best not venture too far. Maybe this isn't too inflammatory. Take ...
7) If you talk about Palestine whenever we talk about crimes against Jews/Antisemitism/Holocaust, you’re most certainly an antisemite.
... so much depends on context. Why any one individual might bring up Palestine in a more general conversation about the holocaust is subject to interpretation.
Starting with the picky ... To be labelled "antisemitic" do they always have to raise that point and, if so, how is that to be measured.
The implication of #7 is that the person is trying to downplay the Holocaust by comparing it to another arguably "lesser" (in terms of deaths) wrong.
But what if the person identifies so strongly with the Palestine that they view it from an historical perspective? The Palestinian situation is a result of the formation of Israeli state that, in turn, is a result of the Holocaust. That is the stated reason WHY the UN voted as it did. An attempt to rectify one wrong arguably led to another.
No doubt some Jews (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim the high ground in terms of an historical "greater wrong;" no doubt some Palestinians (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim it on the basis of an ongoing situation and current actions. But the two are related.
Labelling others is a tricky business.
Last edited by EveryLady; 02-07-2019 at 02:13 PM..
Just like non-Jews may have various responses to the Israeli-Palestinian situation and perceived anti-semitism, so do Jews themselves. Arguably, past injustices pushed some American Jews into the forefront of the unionism and to the civil rights movements.
On the other hand, American Jews are among the forefront of the settler movement in the West Bank where tolerance and support for human rights are in short supply.
Basically, it’s an attempt to shut us all down and cow us into never speaking out about Israel no matter what they do.
I didn't interpret it that way. Actually, it seemed to say pretty clearly that not all criticism of Israel is the result of antisemitism, except perhaps for items 7 and 8, and I'm not altogether sure about those, TBH. They both seem to deal with "whataboutism."
I noticed that the OP said the article appears to have been translated into English from another language. That could have a negative impact on nuance, and if ever a discussion called for nuance, it's this one.
I didn't interpret it that way. Actually, it seemed to say pretty clearly that not all criticism of Israel is the result of antisemitism, except perhaps for items 7 and 8, and I'm not altogether sure about those, TBH. They both seem to deal with "whataboutism."
I noticed that the OP said the article appears to have translated into English from another language. That could have a negative impact on nuance, and if ever a discussion called for nuance, it's this one.
10) If you use word "Jew" as an adjective or a verb (like "Jew money" or "He Jewed me down twenty dollars."), you might be an antisemite.
I generally agree with most of the points although I am always loath to label people because that is such an easy way to dismiss them.
I've heard people use "Jewed me down"....who never met a Jew (or didn't know it) in their entire lives. In a sense, isn't it a compliment to make a great deal? Even among Jews it is very common to say to another "I never pay retail".
Personally I never knew much about skinflint reputations...but then I had a couple friends who were the tightest I have EVER seen with a buck. Turned out they were Scottish, so I guess that reputation came from somewhere.
Thanks. Feelings around the items on that list run so high, I think it makes it difficult to talk about them calmly. Antisemitism horrifies me, yet I also think the Palestinians have been treated badly. Sometimes it's necessary to address these things separately, for example, you can't really complain about Israel when someone bombs a synagogue in the US, and you can't really blame the Palestinians for the Holocaust.
So "no one is allowed to question [it], ever"? As I wrote, respected scholars DO question various aspects of the Holocaust. Then I added -- in a separate paragraph -- that it's not appropriate or acceptable to question whether it HAPPENED...
Uh huh. If one were to start a thread on here and ask a question about it, I guarantee that thread would be shut down fast. If one went on social media and asked a question about it, their account would be suspended. And again, people in some countries go to prison for it - but if you question anything else, no one bats an eye, so don't even try this nonsense of 'of course it's okay to have questions' because you know damn good and well that isn't the truth.
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Don't even know what to say to that level of rudeness.
Oh, yes, let's talk about "levels of rudeness"...
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Note, I did not say you were DOING that (I simply couldn't tell from your post); ...
And yet that didn't stop you from throwing out "That's what people from Storm Front say".
You didn't have a clue what exact questions I may have about it, but you went ahead and threw that on there. Had I said anything at all about any other event in history, you would not have gone straight to "That's what people on Storm Front say". So do not even start with "level of rudeness".
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True about some countries, but of course there is typically historical context in those particular countries for that level of punishment for Holocaust denial (not, as far as I know, for questioning various aspects of the Holocaust, which scholars do all the time). In any case, the U.S. is not one of those countries, which is why there is no need to be so vague.
It doesn't matter if there's "historical context" - we can talk about and question things about slavery in this very country, which has "historical context", yet no one goes to prison for it, do they? No one gets shut down for it, do they? The point is, again, not any other event in history gets a knee jerk reaction, accusations, thinly veiled or right out there, about someone being "anti" anything, except one.
As for vague, get over it. The title of the thread is: "Helpful List To Determine If You're An Anti-Semite". I state that you can't ask questions about the one major event when it comes to Jews, and you're all in a huff because I didn't say "Holocaust" because what? You think people aren't smart enough to figure that out? Did I really need to say it? You knew exactly what I was talking about, so you can spare me your "be so vague about it".
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And again, I didn't say you did; my point was that I couldn't TELL what you were questioning from your post, since you simply didn't say.
Then don't start pounding out "zomG! Storm Front!@!!"
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But again, you made a blanket statement saying, and I quote again, "The very fact that there's only one event in history that no one is allowed to question, ever, says all I need to know." But that blanket statement simply isn't true. You didn't say what kinds of questions you HAD. You still haven't said. That's what I asked.
It's not a "blanket statement", and my questions about it are not your business in this thread. This thread is not about my questions about it. And from your first post, it's evident that you wouldn't be open to even listening to those questions without trying to label me some way - because you already did it, indirectly, when I simply said you can't even ask any questions about it.
The very fact that you're even debating what I said illustrates EXACTLY what I was talking about. You would never have responded like that had the thread title been, "Helpful List To Determine If You're Racist Against Black People", and I responded with, "You can't ask questions about that past". You would have known I was talking about slavery, civil rights, etc. And you would have responded: "Of course you can, what questions do you have?" You sure as hell wouldn't have come on telling and insinuated that questioning anything meant I was racist. Your very responses prove what I said.
The problem that I have with the list (overall) is that it blurs motivation with affirmative action. For example,
8) If you use violence instilled in Palestine by the Israeli government as an excuse to turn away from conversations about antisemitism and violence suffered by Jews, you are not just an antisemite, but you are instrumentalising Palestine and the Palestinian suffering, of which you really do not care.
Who knows really why the person switched the subject. You can be focused on Palestine and/or not want to talk about the Holocaust without being antisemitic. Here, you are inferring motivation for the change in topic.
9) If you think that any Jewish person, or even any Israeli Jew, is guilty of the crimes of the State of Israel and human rights violations, you are an antisemite and also very likely a hypocrite living in a country who has committed many crimes and human rights violations against colonised countries and you do not expect to be held responsible for the violence and oppression of your own country. Watch your consistency.
Here, the assertion is that every person is THIS - possesses this thought or belief. That kind of generalization is "racist" (label du jour) and, in fact, is why some of the other items may not apply. Over-generalization goes to the very heart of racism.
Feelings around the items on that list run so high, I think it makes it difficult to talk about them calmly. Antisemitism horrifies me, yet I also think the Palestinians have been treated badly.
I agree.
In the title of the thread I included the phrase "self-check" to emphasize the purpose. But I think it's good to discuss the topic.
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