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I could respond to this, but my reply would probably also be passive-aggressive, as you define it. I will say only this: you, too, have engaged rather frequently in rhetoric I would consider to be passive-aggressive in the extreme.
Holocaust denial is inarguably linked with Antisemitisim. Germans' record-keeping of their extermination "solution" was extremely thorough, and there are enough pages to fill 28,000 of linear shelves at an archive facility in Alexandria.
The only thing "recorded" was that there was indeed a "final solution". The debate is over what the "Final Solution" was.
If the final solution was to kill all of the Jews, why didn't the Germans just kill them all? And why did they take so much time to bring them from Auschwitz back to Germany? Why didn't Anne Frank's father die? And what did Anne Frank actually die from?
The documents do not show that the Germans had a policy of "killing all the Jews". But people claim that the Germans did have that policy, they just destroyed all of the documents because they didn't want to get in trouble.
What's passive about pointing out the wrong when a non-Jew claims he is in a better position than a Jew to explain what the most important Jewish value is?
No....what's passive-aggressive is what you did to me.....say that I'm thinking like a Nazi. That's an 11 on the old passive-aggressive scale.
I was referring to you as a statist not a Nazi. States, like Nazi Germany, killed over 220 million people last century.
I can definitely respect your experience but at the same time my experience with Jews, as well as historical events, has yielded merit in my analysis.
Murray Rothbard, Ludwig Von Mises, and David Friedman are/were cultural Jews. They are the 3 most prominent philosophers/economists I base my life philosophy on (anarchy).
If I was a teen girl I'd have posters of them on my wall. That's for sure.
And thank god they were raised in that culture. What they did with it has enlightened and progressed human freedom more than anyone I can think of (throw Bastiat and Spooner in there as well).
My favorite Jew that I personally know is my lawyer. He's an anarcho-capitalist like me. Again, thank god he grew up in that culture. He has done more for me to avoid paying taxes/circumnavigating regulation than anyone I could dream possible.
I don't care what you think. The very fact that there's only one event in history that no one is allowed to question, ever, says all I need to know.
We can talk about and debate and question every single thing else in the entire history of the world, except one.
If you think someone having questions about it makes them anti-semite, knock yourself out and feel all your little warm fuzzies inside. I question anyone who tells me I can't question things or aspects of any event.
This is such an emotion-laden topic that best not venture too far. Maybe this isn't too inflammatory. Take ...
7) If you talk about Palestine whenever we talk about crimes against Jews/Antisemitism/Holocaust, you’re most certainly an antisemite.
... so much depends on context. Why any one individual might bring up Palestine in a more general conversation about the holocaust is subject to interpretation.
Starting with the picky ... To be labelled "antisemitic" do they always have to raise that point and, if so, how is that to be measured.
The implication of #7 is that the person is trying to downplay the Holocaust by comparing it to another arguably "lesser" (in terms of deaths) wrong.
But what if the person identifies so strongly with the Palestine that they view it from an historical perspective? The Palestinian situation is a result of the formation of Israeli state that, in turn, is a result of the Holocaust. That is the stated reason WHY the UN voted as it did. An attempt to rectify one wrong arguably led to another.
No doubt some Jews (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim the high ground in terms of an historical "greater wrong;" no doubt some Palestinians (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim it on the basis of an ongoing situation and current actions. But the two are related.
Labelling others is a tricky business.
There is no reason to bring up a conversation about Palestinians in a conversation about the Holocaust especially when it is being used for comparisons. But we should be able to have a conversation about the Palestinians without bringing up the topic of the Holocaust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess
No, follow with me.
1. The two biggest crimes against humanity have been statism and centralized banking (which overlap). I know you will disagree as you are most likely a statist. I am a non-statist (anarchist). Our titles here are not dependent upon either of our religions (or lack there of).
2. Jews are a small homogenized religious group...relatively speaking. Jewish culture has a long tradition of embracing/promoting financial well-being and education (especially in banking and law). Do you disagree? If not, let's move on.
3. If we digest theses points of emphasis as the benign disciplines they are...they are in fact harmless. In my previous post I pointed out that I am a fan of financial literacy and overall education. Neither area is a violation of self-determination or the non-aggression principle. As noted, they are good things.
4. All people have an equal chance of engaging in evil behaviors...full stop.Since Jewish culture is close-knit with a strong emphasis on finance and education (law) it stands to reason that when a Jewish INDIVIDUAL decides to do evil things like serve in government or engage in centralized banking that individual will more often than not excel in those nefarious activities.
Cleared up?
Jews do not commit more heinous crimes than non-Jews in total population. Jews, as a percentage, do so but not because of being Jewish but because cultural factors in Judaism can be readily utilized by individuals looking to do harm.
Last paragraph sounds bad, right? I'm being an anti-Semite, right? But there's more...
Jews do not engage and promote the best virtues of humanity (anarchy and true capitalism which overlap) more so than non-Jews in total population . Jews, as a percentage, do so but not because of being Jewish but because cultural factors in Judaism can be readily utilized by individuals looking to do good.
See how that works? I am not going to collectively assign all Jews being good or bad. Those would have to be individual actions. You are confusing a cultural fact (Jewish culture promotes education/finance, Asian culture promotes education especially in STEM, Mexican culture promotes work ethic, etc.) with what those inside the cultures do with those attributes.
I can have a strong work ethic but if my craft is ripping people off the cultural attribute has been used for bad, not good. I can be a math wiz but use it to extort/defraud others. Again, using the cultural attribute if it rings true, for bad and not good. I can be a fantastic financial expert because the cultural attribute of strong financial literacy rings true in my individualized case but if I'm doing it to promote the federal reserve it's wrong.
Notice you did not mention your culture when talking about ripping people off with the skills you developed in your culture? That's the difference.
It doesn't make sense to blame education on statism and banking and then turn around and congratulate it for the idea of anarchy.
There is no reason to bring up a conversation about Palestinians in a conversation about the Holocaust especially when it is being used for comparisons. But we should be able to have a conversation about the Palestinians without bringing up the topic of the Holocaust.
Notice you did not mention your culture when talking about ripping people off with the skills you developed in your culture? That's the difference.
It doesn't make sense to blame education on statism and banking and then turn around and congratulate it for the idea of anarchy.
I did mention my culture somewhere in this thread: ghetto/anti-education/pro-violence culture. Confused on what you're getting at.
I shunned it. I wish I had grown up in a culture that promoted financial and legal literacy.
I'm congratulating the culture of natural law and natural finance (anarchy and capitalism). It was integral in the lives of those historical figures I mentioned above (Rothbard, Von Mises, Friedman). Without them (3 Jews) the world would be a much darker place. I admire them beyond belief.
The individual decides. My choice was easy because my culture is predicated on violence, a violation of natural law. Finance and Law, in their natural states, are the light of the world.
This is such an emotion-laden topic that best not venture too far. Maybe this isn't too inflammatory. Take ...
7) If you talk about Palestine whenever we talk about crimes against Jews/Antisemitism/Holocaust, you’re most certainly an antisemite.
... so much depends on context. Why any one individual might bring up Palestine in a more general conversation about the holocaust is subject to interpretation.
Starting with the picky ... To be labelled "antisemitic" do they always have to raise that point and, if so, how is that to be measured.
The implication of #7 is that the person is trying to downplay the Holocaust by comparing it to another arguably "lesser" (in terms of deaths) wrong.
But what if the person identifies so strongly with the Palestine that they view it from an historical perspective? The Palestinian situation is a result of the formation of Israeli state that, in turn, is a result of the Holocaust. That is the stated reason WHY the UN voted as it did. An attempt to rectify one wrong arguably led to another.
No doubt some Jews (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim the high ground in terms of an historical "greater wrong;" no doubt some Palestinians (and those viewing it thru that lens) try to claim it on the basis of an ongoing situation and current actions. But the two are related.
Labelling others is a tricky business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
There is no reason to bring up a conversation about Palestinians in a conversation about the Holocaust especially when it is being used for comparisons. But we should be able to have a conversation about the Palestinians without bringing up the topic of the Holocaust.
My point is that it depends on context. The item I was responding to was: "crimes against Jews/Antisemitism/Holocaust" that, yes, I abbreviated to "holocaust." Here, I actually agreed with you if the statement #7 was interpreted as I believe it might - my bold. Some who take that tact may well deserve the "anti-semitic" label - particularly if that's their response in every conversation.
Then I turned to the "but" where I envisioned other scenarios. Like it or not, Palestinians DO bring up the Holocaust when discussing land issues because they know that forms the basis for the UN vote. Now I'm not Palestinian, but in a pre-kid life I spent time in Israel (sometimes for weeks at a time) where I lived with Israeli friends but often stayed in Palestinian areas. I talked to about everyone - from ultra orthodox Jews to Arab peasants to Armenians trying to keep the memory of their Holocaust alive.
The topics are of great interest but I appreciate their sensitivity and so work to not be "too inflammatory." Here, I strongly believe that "there is no reason" to tell someone else "there is no reason" to direct their conversation in one way, unless that is you believe the discussion to be unacceptable or offensive and wish to end it.
Otherwise, just listen. Maybe respond. There is a lot of miscommunication in play on this thread.
OTOH, there are some views expressed that I find a tad difficult even upsetting (revisionist Holocaust history). Here, for example, I could easily add a piece to that view but do NOT. When in Israel, I'd often be taken to visit neighbors who had themselves experienced the Holocaust who would recount terrible stories. Now I never asked for these visits or even myself brought up the Holocaust, being more interested in current Israeli politics and culture. Why? Those I met told me that they were encouraged (this was the 80s and 90s) to reach out to Americans like myself. From that do I draw a negative picture of control and manipulation? Not in the least for, again, so much depends on context and background and motivation.
No. 7 was worked was an absolute statement - which is why I picked it for an objection. IF you do this THEN you ARE. In the end, that was what made it so problematic.
I was trying to make a point, and I highly-doubt anyone thought I was actually quoting her verbatim. I was being facetious to illustrate inconsistencies and hypocrisy.
Actually, I saw the quotation marks and assumed you were quoting her. That's what quotation marks are for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976
Say AquaDulce,
All you're doing is popping in from time to time to say "thanks" when people contribute to this discussion, even when they link to videos of anti-Semitic stereotypes trying to explain why "people hate Jews," or other posters trying to show how Jews control the government and media (also used to build bigotry against Jews).
Why don't you weigh in with your opinion? All you're saying is hmmmmm...... interesting...... thanks.
P.S. Are you male or female, Republican or Democrat?
Proving the point that the OP didn't start the thread to engage in discussion.
Why don't you try reading my response to Rachel before jumping to that conclusion?
I did. You answered by asking her what she'd like to know.
If you don't know the difference between starting a thread because you want to engage in a discussion and answering questions if asked, I don't know what to tell you.
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