Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyaleWithCheese
The bottom line is that the pro-life argument is that a fetus is a person deserving of protection from murder.
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The fetus is a living creature that is deserving of prevention from a miserable life. It's similar to pulling the plug on a terminally ill person just in reverse. In this case the fetus is not a person though but it has the risk of becoming a person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas863
And if you want to talk about manufacturing "silly logic", then please explain to me why most of the "pro-life" advocates seem to lose interest in what happens to that fetus once it gets out of the womb. Once it exits the birth canal, then the baby and mother (along with the rest of the family) are no longer a concern of the "pro-life" crowd.
Are you equally adamant about what happens to the young unwanted kids AFTER they're born? If so, then what ways do you show it? Do you volunteer to babysit for young unwed mothers so they can continue their schooling or work at a job? Do you volunteer to help the mother who just had her fourth kid and whose husband is working at a low wage job trying to keep them fed and clothed? Or does your interest in what happens to that mother and child end once the child is born?
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Many of them really don't and the ones that are willing to do something aren't enough. It doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of people that don't care at all.
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Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
What happens if that life turns out to be a doctor or scientist or a military leader or a teacher and brings up a family and more lives and saves lives does your Russian roulette fortune cookie with others people's lives worth it for a few hundred dollars a bargain? Funny, that you don't try it in yourself. It's always people that has ZERO connections.
I didn't know people can read an unborn future of people they don't even know. Amazing!  |
What happens if I had invested in Amazon? I could have been rich by now. What happens if I had gotten my license years ago? I could have had a better paying job. What happens if I had said yes to a guy who asked me out in high school? Maybe we would have stayed together and who knows we could be happily married by now. What happens if I wrote a book on my struggles in life? What happens if someone had went back in time and killed Hitler? There'd be no holocaust but then what is the consequence of that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
Since when We decide the fate of a life based on economic status or less than perfect parents? Makes me laugh how people trying to excuse the millions of babies being butchered in the last 50 years. Anything to excuse the act.
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Are you not aware of what capitalism today actually means?
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Originally Posted by albert648
The woman's a freaking adult. It's her job and her job ONLY to care for herself and her child. If you want to shift the responsibility of providing for the child to pro-lifers, then they get to have a say in whether women are allowed to have sex at all.
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So it's her job even when she can't? Why is it only her job when she didn't make that baby by herself?
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Originally Posted by ansible90
Yes. And a lot of them will do so with WIC, SNAP and other welfare programs paid for by your tax dollars. I know how much you hate paying taxes.
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True, sometimes it's not even enough.
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Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
I'm old school discipline of tough love.
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Me too in some cases or rather just toughness in general. Too bad our world would rather ignore bad parenting so much so that people on your side want to continue the cycle of bad parenting by letting them give birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
If you're mature enough to have sex and get pregnant, you're mature enough to bear the consequences.
In that case, taxpayers ought to have a say in if women get to have sex at all. Or the mother bears the full cost of the child and we completely abolish all welfare. I don't give a flying rat's ass if you can't provide for them.
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No you're not mature enough to bear the consequence. The woman is often a taxpayer too so you just contradicted your own argument.
You clearly don't. You only care before birth.
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Originally Posted by albert648
Is the mother not imposing HER will on others (the baby or babies) by aborting him/her/them?
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What is birth?
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Originally Posted by Quick Enough
"Poverty", is up to the individual!
MANY who grew up in poverty got out of it.
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Oh it is? Yeah it is thanks to EBT and the like. That is how a lot of people today get out of poverty but even then what did they get into? Are they happy and feel financially secure or are they just one step away from homeless? Surviving or thriving? That is the million dollar question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian
Human beings are, in fact, capable of changing their behaviors.
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Which ones? Or maybe some people are technically/scientifically considered human aren't actually human?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyaleWithCheese
They are a concern after birth to the pro-life crowd. I am not aware of a pro-life position suggesting that it is ok to kill children after they are born.
I am very adamant that children shouldnt be killed after they are born. You tell me who is advocating for that and I will absolutely oppose them.
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That's not what Chas is talking about. That is a bare minimum response to birth.
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Originally Posted by personne
I'm just amazed at how many anti-abortion rights people want "irresponsible people" to be parents...
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Yes especially when some of them even want to ban birth control. They are actively advocating for the wrong people to be parents.
Although to be fair some of them want mandatory sterilization but they seem to be rare (so I guess at least they are consistent in that, that has a different issue attached to it though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
I'll mind my own damn business as soon as you leftards stay the hell out of my wallet.  |
You can afford it of course capitalism is an issue in general but some can afford to be participating it more than others.
Wish people would stay out of MY wallet. I don't even have nothing really to give but everyone is putting out their hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
Maybe people should step up and be responsible for their own economic circumstances instead of passing on the consequences of their mistakes to everyone but themselves. If you want to have (consensual) sex with whomever you want, you assume the risk of a baby being created from that act.
For the record, I don't really care, at least during the first two trimesters. Once you enter the final trimester, the baby's a human and should be protected as a human life - in the case of medical necessity, you do what you can to also save the child. You had 6 months to change your mind. |
The second paragraph is fair at least but how do you be responsible for economic circumstances? I mean I agree that people should ideally be responsible for their own actions but what happens when your own economic circumstance is not really your doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodyum
How is a 14, 15, or 16 year old going to take care and feed an infant without some support?
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When I was 14, I had my first job. I didn't even have kids (still don't) but I couldn't make it. I wasn't ready to work at the time..that job was crap anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
That's not my problem. There are very few adults and children who are truly unable to take care of themselves and have no one to rely on for help.
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And you think that number is still going to be very few if abortion is banned?
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Originally Posted by djohnslaw
I don't understand why women aren't way more careful.
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Ideally women should only have kids/have sex with a decent man but I guess life happens. Nothing is ever the ideal, to err is human as they say.
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Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
You can always give it up for adoption.
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I tried to do that with two cats. The shelters were all filled up. If a cute little kitten can't get a home what hope is there for awkward looking newborns of our species?
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier
What if you become impoverished when the child is five years old. Are you going to kill the child then.
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Shelters do that all the time with animals that don't get adopted. But no we don't kill human children which is why abortion is an important option.
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Originally Posted by rstevens62
Whats wrong with parents working 2 or 3 jobs, to support their children? My parents did this for many years and went to night school, they made it work without asking for help from the govt.
I dont think many people want to work 60-80 hours week nowadays, they would rather take a handout.
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My mom worked a job and she worked very hard at it. She was lucky just to have the one but there was a time she worked at the school and the other job at the same time. It was the start of an injury so she ended up retiring from the school (wasn't enough money though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
YES, rape is bad and is traumatic, but bad things happen to good people every day, life isnt fair, it will be MUCH more traumatic to a woman after she realizes she killed a child that was half hers imo.
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Also half his..how acceptable do you think that is to have his spawn walk around? Plus why do you think it being half hers means it's traumatic? You think she loves herself so much that she would want to have a piece of her around in that scenario? Seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
I wouldnt call any child 'contamination', look at all the adults today, who were born or rape! Some have gone on to do great things, and in no way, does that change them as a person. There is NO physical or psychological difference between a child from rape, vs a child born from a consensual relationship.
If the mother truly doesnt want the child, adoption is always possible, PLENTY of good parents would be willing to take that child, and make sure they grow up to be good people.
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What about the ones that haven't?
If people aren't able to take cute little kittens what makes you think they are able to take human children?
Do you know of how many kids are probably sitting in foster care (it is so common they make plenty of movies on it..one of which was a Disney movie I grew up on)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
Thank you.
And I didn't even touch on life threatening conditions such as pre-eclampsia or gestational diabetes, because thankfully, I didn't have to deal with those. I was, however, hospitalized a few times from such severe vomiting that I kept losing weight throughout my pregnancy. Then at 6 months, I went into preterm labor, so I had to inject myself every day for 3 months with anti-labor medication. Thankfully grandparents shared childcare duties, because I certainly couldn't possibly take care of a 5 and 3 year old from the strict confines of complete bedrest.
But yeah, this is the fun stuff some people think a rape victim should go through. Pregnancy, labor, and childbirth is horrendous and traumatic enough even when planned and fully wanted. There should be a special place in hell for anyone who wants to force a young, innocent rape victim to complete pregnancy and childbirth.  |
Never given birth but it sounds really horrifying. I've seen enough (even when it's glamorized on TV it still looks bad to me). I don't know how I would do it if by some miracle I ended up with a man who I actually wanted to conceive with. I would have to ask him to stay with me like 24/7 probably. I'm scared of just getting my tooth pulled (even though I have done it before). I almost did think about it with the guy I fell in love from high school and I'm so glad he said NO to me and we never actually had sex (although I wanted to). I don't know what I would have done then. I probably would have opted to keep just because I loved him and wanted to keep him around but I would have been even more of a wreck than I am now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H'ton
I guess the counter would be that at least that child has a CHANCE to overcome the trauma and live a productive healthy life. By aborting the child, you are eliminating the child's opportunity to even do that.
Many..and I mean MANY have overcome dire circumstances to not only become health people but highly successful and admired people.
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I don't like chances. There's a chance I could win the lottery but I don't play it because I know I'll likely just lose. There's a chance I could get in a car accident so I still don't have my license.
However if you want to play the chance card aborting a child does not necessarily eliminate childs opportunity. It only eliminates the opportunity of the child having that opportunity in this life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyaleWithCheese
But there is no way you dont beieve there is someone in there.
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I believe there is plenty of "someones" at animal shelters and they are someone more than that fetus but they are euthanized every day and I accept that sometimes they just can't be saved.
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Originally Posted by kayanne
I don't believe a fertilized human egg is a "someone" or a person any more than I believe a fertilized chicken egg is a chicken, or a sprouted seedling is a tree.
Do you believe this is a person?
[IMG][/IMG]
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EW the human body is so disgusting ain't it? I don't even know what that is but it can't be real (although I know it is)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
One dosent miss what they never had.
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This is so very true. I was thinking I came to this apartment for a reason: so I could get my cats but I still get sad about the way my life turned out. Maybe I'll find another cat that I'd love just as much if I hadn't have been here. Or maybe the same cats would find their way to me..if they were meant to be for me they will find a way to be with me but if they're not meant to be for me then I can't really be sad about it. I only dread missing them because I am aware of them.
Getting more on topic people say abortion is bad because of the child not being born but then many people have said they are here because of abortion being an option so if they had had another child, the child that is here now would not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
It is quite absurd that your are comparing the emotions of a woman after an abortion to the emotions of a woman after a miscarriage. You can say the result is the same: dead child (embryo) in utero. Why do you pretend that the women's emotions would be the same? Can you not acknowledge that the loss of a much-wanted pregnancy would cause greater grief than the intentional ending of an undesired pregnancy?
In many cases, grandparents would not grieve because the woman would keep her medical procedure to abort private. If they did know about the abortion, they would not grieve in any way comparable to what the grandparents of the children murdered in TX are feeling.
But I still have no idea why you are going down this irrelevant bunny trail. You are conflating "all deaths are the same" with "all emotions after a death are the same."
But you know this, so I will not be humoring you any further on this ridiculous point. Go ahead and respond, because I know you like to have the last word. It's all yours. |
Next thing you know they will be saying that quitting a job you hate and getting fired from a job you love is the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
A father who doesn’t want his seed aborted better make sure his partner is on the same page.
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Plus there are some fathers that would actually be cool with it. More women want children than men, if the woman doesn't want the child then the father probably doesn't either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
FWIW, many women regret and grieve the loss of life after they've aborted. Some are negatively affected by the experience their entire lives.
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I have a book of regrets. Would you tell me not to make those decisions or feel those things especially if at one time those circumstances I regret I got joy out of (putting this in before politically correct pro lifers say anything: in abortion it's not joy it's relief but that's still a positive feeling) But in many cases they probably don't regret the action itself they regret the circumstance that lead up to having to make that action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Republicans are more likely to actually pay any federal income tax that funds any such programs. The lower-income levels and those on public assistance programs are predominantly Democrats. Take a look at any federal election exit poll and look at how each income level votes. Republicans are paying for that care both before and after birth. Democrats are not holding up their end of the "civilized society" bargain.
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SOME of those Republicans. The same ones who are pro-life are often the same ones who say if you can't survive without welfare tough you are on your own.
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Originally Posted by lottamoxie
Raising a child is much harder, and much more involved than writing a check each month. It's usually assumed it's up to the female to be a single parent and raise the baby, often on her own. However, there's no reason the baby's daddy can't raise a child he conceived. It's hard work, inconvenient, but it would benefit the child. Parity for the win.
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Yes, they may hem and haw about it but it's the least they could do and sometimes they are only doing it because they are ordered to. If they had it their way, mom can struggle on her own and they can pretend it's all her fault.
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Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
They can also stop lying to women and telling them they love them just to get sex. That's a start. Yes, that's on the women not to be so stupid as to believe them, too, but too many still do because it's what they want to believe, and the men use that weak spot to get sex.
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