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I guess concepts such as Tubal ligation and safe sex can be thrown to the wind since we have Roe V Wade as an insurance policy.
Just as you have the right to believe that abortion is a wonderful benchmark of a "progressive" society...I have the right to believe that it is indicative of a society that is, for lack of better words, disgusting and immoral.
And no one is forcing you to abort; however, you are trying to force women to carry a fetus that they don't want.
Why is what you want more important than the person whose body it is?
More insincerity. The mere fact of being living tissue of human origin does not confer any special status at all. If you wish to elevate a fetus, you will need some means beyond just these.
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Originally Posted by camping!
I have answered it. You just prefer to ignore the answer. The cellular super rights would be a misnomer.
Calling super-rights a misnomer does not identify their source. Your response thus falls short of being an answer to the question. In fact, these super-rights do not exist because there is no source from which they can originate beyond the active imaginations of pro-lifers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
I accept that abortion is here and will never go away. I accept that pain and suffering to a fetus being aborted is lessened the earlier the abortion is performed.
The financial cost and physical impact upon a woman are lessened the earlier an abortion is performed. Reason enough to encourage it. As was noted earlier in the thread, fetuses lack the basic neural network structures necessary to recognize pain until well into the third trimester. The actual ability to experience pain in the same sense that you or I do is not completed until well after birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
Use the pill, the sponge, the pill, condoms, IUDs, implants, depo provera....hell, use natural family planning (keeping track of ovulation) if you have to. Any of these things (and to a lesser extent NFP) will keep the stork away.
They will keep all storks away from some people, and some storks away from all people. That leaves a large remainder confronting a pregnancy that they did not intend. Birth control does not confer absolute protection against an unwanted pregnancy any more than carrying a can of mace confers absolute protection against an unwanted mugging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
Babies can't make informed choices...are the less then human?
The sperm and ova of our species are human. Obviously, babies are as well. The point again ignored is that the capacity to make choices is a characteristic of actual human beings. Babies are capable of a very limited range of choices. This is why they are extended a very limited range of rights. Fetuses on the other hand are capable of no choices at all.
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Originally Posted by camping!
I have thrown garbage in this debate?
Yes, and increasingly grade-school playground banter where serious responses should have been.
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Originally Posted by camping!
Again, follow your own advice.
I do not seek to export my own thoughts, beliefs, or opinions onto others. I seek to assure that access to honest information is maintained, and that biased drivel manufactured by partisan zealots is appropriately discounted. Women confronting an unwanted pregnancy deserve our support, not abuse, deceit, and condemnation. The situation unfortunately calls for significant decisions to be made, decisions that will not soon be forgotten. No one -- not you, not me, not Congress, not the Pope -- is better qualified to make those decisions than is the woman involved. For the rest, we provide counsel if asked to, respect for the decisions arrived at, and support in then carrying forward with the rest of one's life. It is not so much the decision as the process by which it is arrived at that is important. That is my advice, and yes, I do follow it...
Last edited by saganista; 06-27-2008 at 11:17 PM..
I guess concepts such as Tubal ligation and safe sex can be thrown to the wind since we have Roe V Wade as an insurance policy.
If one were a generally feeble or grossly irresponsible person perhaps. Not exactly the type that should be encouraged into motherhood, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryant
Just as you have the right to believe that abortion is a wonderful benchmark of a "progressive" society...I have the right to believe that it is indicative of a society that is, for lack of better words, disgusting and immoral.
No one is challenging your right to hold and, in your own life, to act upon whatever views you like. What is challenged is the independent credibility of those views and your right to command that others act in cognizance of them.
Many of these people would support murdering children born with deformities or disabilities as well...
It comes down to a fundamental disrespect for an individual's life (which, its no coincidence that many of these people support "progressive" socialist agendas).
wow that is a great statement. thats elequently said. It does come down to a fundamental respect for human life. If the early stages of birth never existed, neither would you or I ever existed.
What about miscarriages ... which are nature's form of abortion??? Many women have had these natural abortions for many years, and the so called "pro life" crowd hasn't blinked an eye. They certainly haven't been very active in trying to develop a remedy or cure for women who miscarry and WANT to have babies.
Abortion will always exist no matter how many stupid laws or restrictions are placed on it. Miscarriages will still happen, and women who choose to end their pregnancies will still obtain abortions ... either through unsafe practices or traveling somewhere that it's legal. Keep it safe & legal, and quit expecting the government to be your savior for the "good of society".
More insincerity. The mere fact of being living tissue of human origin does not confer any special status at all. If you wish to elevate a fetus, you will need some means beyond just these.
Insincere, moi? You are the one trying everything you can think of to reduce the impact of abortion....its an invader, science sees no difference between a fetus and an anal polyp (still waiting to see an OBGYN agree with you on that one), a mani/pedi is the same as an abortion, the pill is the same as an abortion, restricting abortions is the same as enslaving womens uteruses for a minimum of twenty children. Your asinine arguments...not mine.
As far as special status, I ask that you call it what it is....a unique human life that while not complete in its gestation does not negate the fact that it is uniquely human down to a cellular level, with a different dna signature, heart rate and brainwaves then that of its mother.
That is what I maintain.
Calling super-rights a misnomer does not identify their source. Your response thus falls short of being an answer to the question. In fact, these super-rights do not exist because there is no source from which they can originate beyond the active imaginations of pro-lifers.
Read above and tell me that I haven't answered your question. Maybe I just didn't answer it to your liking, but answered it I did.
The financial cost and physical impact upon a woman are lessened the earlier an abortion is performed. Reason enough to encourage it. As was noted earlier in the thread, fetuses lack the basic neural network structures necessary to recognize pain until well into the third trimester. The actual ability to experience pain in the same sense that you or I do is not completed until well after birth.
Until well after birth? Really? Know that for sure, do you? Because there were a lot of assumptions made on what fetuses can feel at what times during its development, and some of thus assumptions were wrong (saline abortions, anyone?). I maintain through personal experience that yes, fetus can have death throes....whether that is actual physical torment or a reaction from the brain stem when confronted with imminent death I don't pretend to know. But it certainly could not have been pleasant from any perspective. And that was at twenty weeks gestation.
They will keep all storks away from some people, and some storks away from all people. That leaves a large remainder confronting a pregnancy that they did not intend. Birth control does not confer absolute protection against an unwanted pregnancy any more than carrying a can of mace confers absolute protection against an unwanted mugging.
No, not all birth control works all the time. But it certainly lessens the chances of becoming pregnant unintentionally then using nothing at all.
The sperm and ova of our species are human. Obviously, babies are as well. The point again ignored is that the capacity to make choices is a characteristic of actual human beings. Babies are capable of a very limited range of choices. This is why they are extended a very limited range of rights. Fetuses on the other hand are capable of no choices at all.
Babies are capable of making what kind of choices? None that I am aware of. A severely brain damaged person is not able to make choices at all, yet they are conferred human status. Why is that? They have no intellect to speak of, perhaps they only have the very basic of brain stem activity......yet they are human, and afforded civil rights. Why? Because they are not attached to a person? In a very real way, they are. Yet I see no euthanasia centers......at least not yet.
Yes, and increasingly grade-school playground banter where serious responses should have been.
Playground banter? What amazes me is that you sling insults and write bombastic arguments and yet you have the gall to become offended when I respond in a similiar manner. I'm surprised that you aren't chanting, "I'm rubber, your glue..."
I do not seek to export my own thoughts, beliefs, or opinions onto others. I seek to assure that access to honest information is maintained, and that biased drivel manufactured by partisan zealots is appropriately discounted. Women confronting an unwanted pregnancy deserve our support, not abuse, deceit, and condemnation. The situation unfortunately calls for significant decisions to be made, decisions that will not soon be forgotten. No one -- not you, not me, not Congress, not the Pope -- is better qualified to make those decisions than is the woman involved. For the rest, we provide counsel if asked to, respect for the decisions arrived at, and support in then carrying forward with the rest of one's life. It is not so much the decision as the process by which it is arrived at that is important. That is my advice, and yes, I do follow it...
No, I don't believe that you do follow your own advice. Particularily when you say "assure that access to honest information is maintained", may I ask what is honest about calling a fetus anything but a fetus? What is honest about using analogies as far flung from the truth as invaders and bunions? There is no honesty in that. What there is, is an attempt to seperate the truth from the procedure. It is/was a fetus. It did have potential. It was unique. It was alive (in a very real way, not in a hemorhoid way) and now it is dead. That is honest. And that you have yet to be.
What about miscarriages ... which are nature's form of abortion??? Many women have had these natural abortions for many years, and the so called "pro life" crowd hasn't blinked an eye. They certainly haven't been very active in trying to develop a remedy or cure for women who miscarry and WANT to have babies.
Abortion will always exist no matter how many stupid laws or restrictions are placed on it. Miscarriages will still happen, and women who choose to end their pregnancies will still obtain abortions ... either through unsafe practices or traveling somewhere that it's legal. Keep it safe & legal, and quit expecting the government to be your savior for the "good of society".
Miscarriages are not something that can be chosen, and they are not something that can be prevented. They just are.
An abortion is something that is chosen. An abortion is ending a healthy pregnancy prematurely.
Can you comprehend the difference?
As far as prolifers finding a cure for miscarriages? There are specialists that deal with this. I hope you never have to find out about these specialists.
I would suggest you check out The Oldest and Largest Infertility (INCIID) Adoption. Parenting, Pregnancy online Community ---- perhaps that may clarify the difference to you.
Who are you to decide what a person does with their body?
No one is forcing you to do anything, yet you are attempting to control the body of another.
I am attempting nothing of the sort. I am attempting to put back honesty in a debate ---- a fetus is not a worm, no matter how badly a woman wants to make it so. Also, this thread is about late term abortion and yes...that I am totally against and willfully say a woman has no right to perpetrate such an act on another person without damn good reason, if any reason is appropriate. And waiting too long is not a good reason. And neither is depression. Or down syndrome. Or a cleft palate, Or the baby is a girl --- which happens frequently in places such as India and China. How that gets a pass by feminists I will never understand.
But, chielgirl I do admit that despite my personal views on abortion even in its earliest stages, abortion is not going to go away. I would much rather have it legal and regulated then have knitting needles and perforated uteruses (although perforation and other outcomes still happen), and would like to see things such as ru-486 used more frequently.
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