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No, because looks are important to women. It stinks that, additionally, society conditions women to think fearfully of men.
Another stinker is that society tells men to keep their 'weak' emotions to themselves. I think Elliot Rodger was very bottled-up, so much that he didn't even reveal much (other than his name) in a let-it-all-out site like PUA Hate or to therapists. He had a few stories in the manifesto of how revealing personal info came back to bite him.
Those are issues society should address fast, to minimize more young male implosions and explosions. On this site, people could resolve to not shame male posters who are complaining.
No one is trying to shame male posters. Women are trying to explain that it's not just men who experience loneliness and rejection. It's very clear that for some men there doesn't seem to be a way to make a break through on this. You simply will not believe what women are trying to tell you. If you refuse to believe us then okay that's fine, but don't blame us when your misguided theories of numbers and rating games don't work. Comments that have been made throughout this tread have been made in the spirit of trying to help the situation not shame any particular posters.
I was talking more about the forum in general than this thread in particular, excluding the last few pages, and that has little to do with women's struggles. It is too close to shaming when men open up online and others (male or female) tell them the problem is them (and seems to embitter more when coming from idealized-as-nice women). It's rarely just a guy's fault, and if it's mostly about him, what specifically can he improve? I liked Pua Hate partly because they could impressively dissect men's looks (hardly subjective) and present evidence about how important it really is to women, at least the younger ones. Too bad Elliot Rodger mostly ignored what that forum said about looks. Some there ripped apart his general impression posthumously.
I was talking more about the forum in general than this thread in particular, excluding the last few pages, and that has little to do with women's struggles. It is too close to shaming when men open up online and others (male or female) tell them the problem is them (and seems to embitter more when coming from idealized-as-nice women). It's rarely just a guy's fault, and if it's mostly about him, what specifically can he improve? I liked Pua Hate partly because they could impressively dissect men's looks (hardly subjective) and present evidence about how important it really is to women, at least the younger ones. Too bad Elliot Rodger mostly ignored what that forum said about looks. Some there ripped apart his general impression posthumously.
My unsolicited advice is to stay away from PUA and PUA Hate sites. I didn't even know what they were until this week and have poked around on them some. First, the PUA sites are scams designed to make money off of lonely, insecure men. They offer nothing substantial in the way of advice. Plus they contribute to the notion that women are commodities and not people.
The PUA hate sites are run by people who have been unsuccessful in dating so why would you go to them for advice about dating? It's like getting diet recommendations from Oprah--she's never been successful at it, so why would you seek her advice? There's a lot of anger on those sites as well that isn't healthy for anyone.
The people on here who suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and perhaps adjust your attitude and expectations have nothing at stake. I'm a 52-year-old married woman and I know from experience that there's more to people, relationships, dating and mating than alpha and beta males and women who need to be sorted and rated into categories as if they were shipments of fruit. When you start seeing yourself as a man and not a type of man, and women as individuals and not goods up for auction, you will begin to have satisfying interactions with people.
If you consider that advice to be "shaming," oh well.
Not really true. And even if true, that doesn't speak as to why that should be the case when any number of other relationships are owed to one degree or another. This has nothing to do with nobody owing anyone things, and everything to do with WHO owes WHOM. That is ALL that is in play here. Betas are dirt in this system, so, "they're owed nothing." If they weren't dirt, they'd be owed all sorts of prizes. And nobody of good cheer would question this.
"Betas" are owed the same default relationship everyone else is. The chance to start one with someone who wants one with them. What they do with that chance is up to them. If they go around alienating and objectifying half the population, they have no one to blame but themselves if those people want nothing to do with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tairos
By the way, do be sure to remind women of that when they're over the hill and demanding that men "man up" and marry them. I'm sure they'll be ever bit as measured and reasonable as me.
Someone who thinks women have no worth other than their looks and are inherently less valuable when they're over the hill is not measured or reasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tairos
Yes, of course. 100% of the problem is ALWAYS with low status males. The winners, women and society are completely blameless. Immaculate. I know. What a convenient ideology, one that compels the losers to kick themselves when they're down so the winners don't have to be bothered.
The relationship problems people like you have come from within. Not from women. Not from other men. They might have other problems, but that's besides the point. Your problems are 100% yours and stem from your own poor outlook about other people. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can work on changing it and having a happier life and more fulfilling relationships. But it's ALWAYS easier to blame someone else or society in general for your own faults because it means you don't have to change.
Someone linked this article earlier in the thread, but I'm going to repost it just for you:
While I think women should be able to date whoever they want to date if they choose to do so, I do think this huge emphasis on sex in our society and country (particularly the idea that if men don't regularly have sex then they are total losers) is stupid, considering that many men in the past (ie Ed Koch, John Frusciante, Thomas Edward Lawrence, Edward Gorey, Benjamin Cardozo, Bradford Cox, etc) have in the present and the past have made a powerful impact on our society in various ways despite presumably never having sex and/or being in a relationship. Truthfully I am beginning to think the whole idea of sex and even relationships in general is overrated anyways.
The best therapy this guy and someone like the guy who shot up the gym a couple of years ago could have is to talk to enough older guys who've been married for 20 or so years to realize that not finding or being able to get a woman is far from worth shooting people up for.
The 100% any man's fault stuff needs to get out of this thread. Almost every frustrated man is willing to change things about himself if he thinks it's doable.
I stay away from the PUA sites, where the false hopes and subsequent efforts might actually make men more frustrated (e.g., Sodini and Rodger). On PUA Hate, the anger of course was poisonous and the quality of its advice was iffy because some were too alienated from the real world, but the looks info (the simplest big thing to work on) was better than what men usually get from blue-pill/feel-good sites filled with people who overestimate their knowledge and helpfulness. Frankly, almost no middle-aged woman is going to relate to a young man (who would hardly listen if he knew the source). The dating scene has changed over the past few decades. An average young guy in the Western World who wants a pleasant-looking, pleasant-to-be-around, loyal, childless young woman for a committed relationship, probably the dream of most men throughout history - his chances are not good these days. We as society need to do something about that, or many of the young men are not going to turn out the way we want them to. Many of them might need to adjust their attitudes and expectations, but just telling them that isn't going to make them change and likely will cause anger.
Last edited by goodheathen; 05-29-2014 at 03:39 PM..
The 100% any man's fault stuff needs to get out of this thread. Almost every frustrated man is willing to change things about himself if he thinks it's doable.
I stay away from the PUA sites, where the false hopes and subsequent efforts might actually make men more frustrated (e.g., Sodini and Rodger). On PUA Hate, the anger of course was poisonous and the quality of its advice was iffy because some were too alienated from the real world, but the looks info (the simplest big thing to work on) was better than what men usually get from blue-pill/feel-good sites filled with people who overestimate their knowledge and helpfulness. Frankly, almost no middle-aged woman is going to relate to a young man (who would hardly listen if he knew the source). The dating scene has changed over the past few decades. An average young guy in the Western World who wants a pleasant-looking, pleasant-to-be-around, loyal, childless young woman for a committed relationship, probably the dream of most men throughout history - his chances are not good these days. We as society need to do something about that, or many of the young men are not going to turn out the way we want them to. Many of them might need to adjust their attitudes and expectations, but just telling them that isn't going to make them change and likely will cause anger.
I just don't believe that dating has changed profoundly in the 20 years since I was in the dating world. If you're in your 20's that probably seems like a long time, but while a few things may have changed, people certainly have not. Your chances of meeting a nice, pretty woman for a long-term relationship are as good as they've ever been.
I'm curious--how old are you?
In any event, there isn't anything "society" can do about this issue. No one can make women date men they don't like. But I firmly believe there's a lid for every pot, so in your individual case, be patient.
Goodheathen- you're another grievance collector. You want social ineptness to be everybody else's fault ? You're threatening- If you don't get what you want - you won't turn out well ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Grow up, act like an adult . An adult is responsible for his or her own life .
Anyone, man or women having trouble with relationships needs to look to themselves to make adjustments -it is 100% on an individual to do whatever is necessary learn to be social, to learn to treat women as individuals, to learn to treat women as worthwhile and not a toy for sexual gratification ,to stop putting labels on women.
And stop worrying about people's ages. You won't learn about life from people stewing in the same pot as you. That will never work. You learn from people who are in relationships. You learn from people in long term relationships. You learn from people who have developed social skills over their lives. These people are the "society" you keep noting. Ignore them and what they are telling you if you like, but then don't complain that life is passing you by .
The 100% any man's fault stuff needs to get out of this thread. Almost every frustrated man is willing to change things about himself if he thinks it's doable.
I stay away from the PUA sites, where the false hopes and subsequent efforts might actually make men more frustrated (e.g., Sodini and Rodger). On PUA Hate, the anger of course was poisonous and the quality of its advice was iffy because some were too alienated from the real world, but the looks info (the simplest big thing to work on) was better than what men usually get from blue-pill/feel-good sites filled with people who overestimate their knowledge and helpfulness. Frankly, almost no middle-aged woman is going to relate to a young man (who would hardly listen if he knew the source). The dating scene has changed over the past few decades. An average young guy in the Western World who wants a pleasant-looking, pleasant-to-be-around, loyal, childless young woman for a committed relationship, probably the dream of most men throughout history - his chances are not good these days. We as society need to do something about that, or many of the young men are not going to turn out the way we want them to. Many of them might need to adjust their attitudes and expectations, but just telling them that isn't going to make them change and likely will cause anger.
The thing is, from what he's posted so far he doesn't think he needs to change. He refuses to accept responsibility for his own relationship problems, and instead projects the faults onto other people for not agreeing and conforming to his unreasonable standard. Just like Elliot Roger. The two of them are cut from the same cloth.
He said himself he wants to return to the days when women were forced into marrying early. Were the women happy under that system? Obviously not. But, that's just not important because they're only women so who cares about their happiness?
Men like that don't want a partner to love as an equal, they want a trophy/sex toy/housemaid/nanny they can possess and ignore when they don't want something from her. I stand behind what I said. People with opinions like these are 100% at fault for their own relationship problems.
I don't have patience for posts accusing me of this and that. I'm not a young man and am not talking about myself. I am not seeking a female possession. Desist, or that will lead to getting the thread closed.
The thing here, the underlying tragedy of the "kissless virgin" becoming a killer, is that too many young men aren't treated as worthwhile by women or society in general. Heck, he even rightly suggested that men value their pals less as they become interested in females, or I could argue, fall away due to having to put too much time and energy into pursuing hard-to-impress females.
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