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When you leave your property at someone else's house, it creates an implied involuntary bailment. You have a duty to use reasonable efforts to protect it, and to return it when it is requested by its rightful owner.
This would be pretty funny if it actually worked this way in the real world.
Everybody would be suing everybody else for stuff they suddenly discovered they wished they took before closing! "Gee whiz, Ma, jest have a gander at Antiques Roadhouse. That ol' tin bucket we left hangin' in the well? I'll be danged if it ain't worth $150 as a fancy-pants planter! Get on the horn to that there reeelter and demand our property back!"
Heating oil left in a tank is not a car. Do you register ownership, insure and pay property taxes on heating oil? Any way you slice it, it's not personal property. It's just a source of energy for the necessary and normal operation of the household - a utility. Let's at least try to compare apples to apples here.
If you assume that oil in the oil tank belongs to the seller even if the house is sold with no specific requirement in the contract to pay for said oil, then ---- why not assume that the contents of the septic tank belong to the seller even if the house is sold with no specific requirement to remove the contents of the septic tank -- and thus the seller could be forced to either remove the septic contents after the sale or pay for pumping it out? Now that could get interesting.
I notice that the OP hasn't returned to tell us the final verdict --- would be nice to know how it all actually did work out.
You folks are living in your own little dream world. I agree it would be nice if you could just make up laws as you think they should be, but that's not how the world works.
When you leave your property at someone else's house, it creates an implied involuntary bailment. You have a duty to use reasonable efforts to protect it, and to return it when it is requested by its rightful owner.
But I enjoyed the good laugh I got when I read what you thought should happen.
Hope you enjoyed the law lesson. Come back anytime.
Wrong.
"An involuntary (or constructive) bailment occurs when a person comes into possession of property accidentally or mistakenly, as where a lost purse or car keys are found and need to be protected until properly redelivered -- a bailment is implied by law."
When a seller leaves personal property in a home that is conveyed to someone else, an involuntary bailment is not created because it is not "by accident or mistakenly".. its intentional.
What we have is an abandonment of personal property left on a home. When a seller gets up and leaves the property, and then signs a transfer of title on that home, with a date/time to convey title to the new buyer, the buyer obtains title to the home and any/all possessions abandoned..
Heating oil left in a tank is not a car. Do you register ownership, insure and pay property taxes on heating oil? Any way you slice it, it's not personal property. It's just a source of energy for the necessary and normal operation of the household - a utility. Let's at least try to compare apples to apples here.
Personal (as opposed to real) property is personal property. It does not convey with realty. It doesn't matter whether it is solid or liquid, titled or not titled. If it's not a fixture, it conveys separate from realty. To claim a right to it, the buyer would have to show some evidence that it was conveyed. It isn't in the deed, and it isn't in the contract.
I don't think the question was whether it is worth it to fight over $700. The question was who it belongs to, and clearly it still belongs to the seller.
"An involuntary (or constructive) bailment occurs when a person comes into possession of property accidentally or mistakenly, as where a lost purse or car keys are found and need to be protected until properly redelivered -- a bailment is implied by law."
Yes, exactly. If you leave your car keys at someone's house, it would be the same thing as leaving the heating oil. You post the definition like it's not applicable, which only shows that you don't understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
When a seller leaves personal property in a home that is conveyed to someone else, an involuntary bailment is not created because it is not "by accident or mistakenly".. its intentional.
Wrong. It is by accident. Intentional... see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
What we have is an abandonment of personal property left on a home. When a seller gets up and leaves the property, and then signs a transfer of title on that home, with a date/time to convey title to the new buyer, the buyer obtains title to the home and any/all possessions abandoned..
Wrong. Abandonment requires intent to permanently leave it behind. Sorry. Try again. And better luck next time.
Again, abaondonment requires intent. And the law discourages the finding that something has been abandoned, so typically the intent has to be pretty clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Even in California... a Landlord can charge you reasonable storage fees. If you do not reclaim belongings within 18 days of vacating, the landlord can mail you a notice to pick them up, and then can either sell them at auction or keep them (if their value is less than $300)
A landlord has this right by statute and/or by by contract. It doesn't have anything to do with the question at hand unless you are arguing that the buyer could charge storage fees. And I'm not arguing that (s)he couldn't. The 18 days is applicable strictly to the landlord/tenant relationship and has no bearing on the situation at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Also... Possession is 9/10's of the Law...
When all else fails, throw in a cliche. I know attorneys who sometimes fall back on this technique. Heck... it could... be true...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Lastly, why couldn't the owner demand the Seller come and remove the Hazardous Material they left behind... last I checked, paint, pesticide and fuel are all classified as Hazardous...
Yes, exactly. If you leave your car keys at someone's house, it would be the same thing as leaving the heating oil. You post the definition like it's not applicable, which only shows that you don't understand it.
Wrong. It is by accident. Intentional... see below.
Wrong. Abandonment requires intent to permanently leave it behind. Sorry. Try again. And better luck next time.
No when someone gets up and takes EVERYTHING, except a lawn mower, its not an accident, it was intentional. How in the world could you even think otherwise.
So if someone gets up and leaves a swimming pool in the back yard, you think its ok for them to come 5 weeks after closing and claim ownership of it, oooh I forgot I had a pool in the back yard.
Personal (as opposed to real) property is personal property. It does not convey with realty. It doesn't matter whether it is solid or liquid, titled or not titled. If it's not a fixture, it conveys separate from realty. To claim a right to it, the buyer would have to show some evidence that it was conveyed. It isn't in the deed, and it isn't in the contract.
I don't think the question was whether it is worth it to fight over $700. The question was who it belongs to, and clearly it still belongs to the seller.
It hasn't been established if the oil "clearly" belongs to the seller, or not.
In your opinion it does; but since we do not know the laws applicable to this particular transaction, in this particular town and state, I do not believe the ownership/responsibility has yet been proven. It is not even clear what constitutes a "fixture", as many post-closing disagreements have shown.
Again, abaondonment requires intent. And the law discourages the finding that something has been abandoned, so typically the intent has to be pretty clear.
A landlord has this right by statute and/or by by contract. It doesn't have anything to do with the question at hand unless you are arguing that the buyer could charge storage fees. And I'm not arguing that (s)he couldn't. The 18 days is applicable strictly to the landlord/tenant relationship and has no bearing on the situation at hand.
When all else fails, throw in a cliche. I know attorneys who sometimes fall back on this technique. Heck... it could... be true...
Who says the owner can't?
So your saying that the owner intended to take the oil even though they called up and admitted that they forgot about it, sorry, not even the seller is claiming the intended to take it.
This is not a landlord/tenant dispute, where by law, you would be required to store anything the tenants left, this is a sale and transfer of assets and you very clearly have till x day to retreive your assets (day of closing or negotiated day) or its abandoned..
Geesh.....
If this happened to me , I got your cliches for ya-
too bad, so sad
ya snooze, ya lose
a day late a dollar short
finder's keeper's
after 5 WEEKS? come on people. if it was that important they would have brought it up wayyy before now. It's not like they didn't know it was there........they, or someone forgot. Or whoever handled the closing didn't see that it was an issue. If they wanted the oil they should have pumped it out and stored it elsewhere, or else written it in as DOES not CONVEY. Or said we need to side bill you for the oil....
I try to be nice, but you just can't let people walk on you and that is what IMHO they are trying to do... it's not like they called to ask to come get the car key they had hidden under the fourth rock, in the left hand flower bed, in the back yard, that in the mess of moving they failed to retrieve.
I was curious how many weeks Willy feels someone could come back & ask for restitution ?
Would 10 weeks be better? How about 6 or 12 months? At what point when they come back is it to late?
You do have to give them credit that they have the kahunas to come back and ask.
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