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Forums are the worst, but I'm talking about more than just forums. I'm talking about women who "can't find a decent man", men who complain about women, online, offline, whatever. A lot of people don't take responsibility for their own situation, that's the truth, and it's not just in the dating arena, but in many aspects of life. Some do and that's great, but I don't find them to be the majority.
It takes great strength to that though. Do you believe people have the strength to do such a thing? Let's say you were to take a guy, Put him in front of a mirror, list off every mistake he's ever made in life, list off all of his shortcomings and failures and then finally put a gun into his hand, what do you think he'll do? Will he pick himself up off the ground and move forward or would he blow his brains out?
Because they know that either they're too far and few between and they don't have the looks, height, or money to attract them.
Or, if they're really smart, men know they don't exist and he's stopped looking, he's realized his place in this world no longer as a provider or head of household....he's a flavor of the week, he's an ego boost, he's a random hook up. That's our role. At least I can see and admit that.
I believe there are many men (not all, maybe not even most) who start their early adult hood as 'good guys'*
*I'm assuming your definition are guys who do not use women, but seek women to with true intentions and respect
Depending on the type of good guy and his experiences he can take one of a few paths:
1. He can just be a whiny btch about it and become a nerd that doesn't leave his house, change nothing about his social life and environment, and just complain that women don't like him because they don't like nice guys (which is partly true) except they're fat and unattractive and boring.
2. He can buy into the BS of "you'll find someone eventually", keep a positive outlook, and keep subjecting himself to emotional confusing and torture over and over again.
3. Until he realizes trying to be those "good qualities" of a kind, respectful, reliable, friendly man are irrelevant and undervalued. The effort it will take him to put himself out there and display those qualities is not worth the return on that investment of putting time and ego on the line. He will realize that he only wants one thing from women and it takes a lot less effort to get that. He will take advantage of and lie to women with little effort, with a smirk on his face, and joke about it with his friends afterward. There's no consequence for this, there's no emotional hurt or risk, and he gets what he wants anyway. He's let go of the married/family life because he knows it's not available to him and it's not in his destiny despite that he's tried so hard to find in it the past. He's comfortable, does other things to make himself happy, has plenty of money that he didn't have to spend on a wedding, marriage, or children (and if you don't think money buys happiness you are absolutely wrong, it does. Try frowning on a waverunner if you don't believe me).
Why do you think so many 30+ men who are single/never married have such high standards and remain single even further into their lives? Because they're happy and they figured out how it works and they know their role. They know their position. They know the marriage concept is a sham.
Hey, Hans? I'm not sure if you saw my post to you because you didn't respond, but here's an addendum. The following is the reality of the sweet, nice, kind young woman who goes for casual hookups and easy sex:
HA! oh Julia, Julia..
pumping and dumping isn't a bad thing, besides you can't say she wasn't asking for a visit from the plumber
I disagree cdubs. I think there's a fourth category, people who just decide to forego love and relationships all together and simply focus on their careers, the family they already have, and their hobbies. That's what I see myself becoming in 10 years. I'll stop trying to pursue women, because frankly path #3 sounds incredibly empty and unfulfilling. I can't see myself "humpin and dumpin," it just seems so vapid. I'll probably focus on my job, focus on buying a house and the sports car I've always wanted, maybe get a dog, keep improving my bass skills and maybe have a band on the side. Go on vacation to various places and be able to afford to take care of my parents (particularly my mother as she's not as financially well-off as my father) once they're very old.
I'd love to be doing all that with a faithful, loyal woman by my side who wants me for who I am and not because I'm making money or whatever, but if life continues its current course I don't see that happening. It seems most women care about either the numbers on your bank statement or the numbers on your workout log or the numbers in your little black book. It seems that being a loyal trustworthy intelligent friend is not as valued as being a meathead womanizer.
I believe there are many men (not all, maybe not even most) who start their early adult hood as 'good guys'*
*I'm assuming your definition are guys who do not use women, but seek women to with true intentions and respect
3. Until he realizes trying to be those "good qualities" of a kind, respectful, reliable, friendly man are irrelevant and undervalued. The effort it will take him to put himself out there and display those qualities is not worth the return on that investment of putting time and ego on the line. He will realize that he only wants one thing from women and it takes a lot less effort to get that. He will take advantage of and lie to women with little effort, with a smirk on his face, and joke about it with his friends afterward. There's no consequence for this, there's no emotional hurt or risk, and he gets what he wants anyway. He's let go of the married/family life because he knows it's not available to him and it's not in his destiny despite that he's tried so hard to find in it the past. He's comfortable, does other things to make himself happy, has plenty of money that he didn't have to spend on a wedding, marriage, or children (and if you don't think money buys happiness you are absolutely wrong, it does. Try frowning on a waverunner if you don't believe me).
Why do you think so many 30+ men who are single/never married have such high standards and remain single even further into their lives? Because they're happy and they figured out how it works and they know their role. They know their position. They know the marriage concept is a sham.
I agree wholeheartedly with this, except trying hard to get the married/family life.
Marriage in general is a sham, there's no reason for men to get married. It benefits women and children , but its damn near indentured servitude for men.
Both of these viewpoints make sense if you are dating/marrying a person who is similar in desiring a certain type in their youth, yet desiring a different type once they are older.
It doesn't make as much sense for the topic of the last few pages, which is the dilemma of men in this thread whose values seemed to remain constant over the years, but having to accept dating/marrying women whose values changed as they became older. The risk is greater on his end, because he has always been the same but she has changed. If they both changed, then it would be more of a similar match.
Unfortunately needed disclaimer: Nothing I said above is meant to infer that only women change and men do not. I am simply commenting in regards to the points raised by men in this thread. Once could reverse the genders and my opinion would be the same.
As noted by other posters, I don't see remarkable differences. At the core we're still the same. My values really haven't changed, rather priorities have changed. Is that what you guys are meaning? I always figured priorities do change for a lot of folk as they get older where they are age appropriate (marriage, kids, college, responsibilities in general). I'm also curious where maturation comes into play here.
I believe there are many men (not all, maybe not even most) who start their early adult hood as 'good guys'*
*I'm assuming your definition are guys who do not use women, but seek women to with true intentions and respect
Depending on the type of good guy and his experiences he can take one of a few paths:
1. He can just be a whiny btch about it and become a nerd that doesn't leave his house, change nothing about his social life and environment, and just complain that women don't like him because they don't like nice guys (which is partly true) except they're fat and unattractive and boring.
2. He can buy into the BS of "you'll find someone eventually", keep a positive outlook, and keep subjecting himself to emotional confusing and torture over and over again.
3. Until he realizes trying to be those "good qualities" of a kind, respectful, reliable, friendly man are irrelevant and undervalued.
I snipped the rest because you were going into a bit of a rant there, and I was just asking a question out of curiosity.
It seems to me, then, that men and women are either figuring that good people of the opposite sex don't exist or they're so rare that why even bother. If this phenomenon exists, I doubt it's something that women are doing to men; rather, it's something that women are doing to men who are doing to women who in turn do it to men, ad infinitum. Catch-22. I wish I had some magic answer, but all I can say is that it's sad and I'm sorry for you.
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Originally Posted by cdubs3201
Why do you think so many 30+ men who are single/never married have such high standards and remain single even further into their lives? Because they're happy and they figured out how it works and they know their role. They know their position. They know the marriage concept is a sham.
I don't think many of them are happy. Some of them may be. Others are resigned at best--and some are resentful and angry. I could pull a bunch of threads about it too, but I hope it suffices for me to state that they are out there.
My own uncle is in his mid-50s, a lifetime bachelor with a fat stack of money in the bank, plenty of toys, a Corvette he paid cash for, a paid-off house, etc. He's a good man who contributes to his community and genuinely leads the people who work for him; I admire him very much. I know he enjoys his freedom and personal space, and I know he has enough money to buy a lot of things he might want. I also know how much he wanted to be a father, a realization that probably came to him over the last five years or so. Sometimes a wave runner doesn't cut it.
Be careful what you wish for. That's all I have to say about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordlife
HA! oh Julia, Julia..
pumping and dumping isn't a bad thing, besides you can't say she wasn't asking for a visit from the plumber
I'm not bagging on the casual sex scene so much, except to say, "Ew, gross" at the "pump and dump" label. I was trying to point out to Hans that if you want women who give it up easily with no expectation or desire for anything more, don't simultaneously complain, "Hey, why do these women act so easy?" It's like going to McDonalds and then complaining that the food is bad.
I appreciate the note. I would like to respond to your comments. I hope you don't find my response too offensive, as it's not my goal to offend.
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Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
Hans - I'm sorry if you think I'm rude.
It's not necessary to apologize for what I think. If you don't think you were rude, then you can leave it at that. Or perhaps I could say that I'm sorry you don't think it's rude to talk about me like I'm not in the room. My point here is not to say you are wrong, it's to ask you to try to understand my side of that interaction.
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But honestly - you and I are on completely different wave legnths and in many ways - it really isn't worth my time.
You're the one who asked me about my personal life, and I responded twice (posts 351 and 393). Think of it from my point of view. I considered that you were reaching out to make a connection, so I chose to open up. I was the one taking all the risk. Now, it turns out I'm not worth your time. I hope you can understand that my time is also valuable, and I chose to use that time to respond to your inquiry. So please consider how I feel about that.
I'm aware that my values and interests may be considered unpopular. For that reason, I'm the one who takes the greater risk when opening up. It's not unusual for people to decide that, relative to their views, I'm wrong, or bad, or weird. So they judge me: they're better than me, so no point in associating with me. Well, that's OK, I can take it. It's happened before and it will happen again. I'm a grown up.
But it still feels disappointing when it happens.
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I don't like your attitude towards women - which is what I have taken issue with. You even called women "sober and saggy" in one of your posts. I'm sorry - but I find a lot of what you say offensive to me as a woman.
Well, at least you've pointed to an example. Some people (they know who they are) talk about how offensive I am, but don't have the courage to point to a specific example and call me on it. They hide behind their lack of courage and call others names. It's just chicken chit.
The "sober and soggy" was in the context of a story, where I needed to describe some women that the man in the story might find unappealing. Now, please consider, if a woman told a story about men who were "fat and balding", would that be OK? So I don't know whether I'm being judged according to a double standard, or if I really did something wrong. Freedom123 has already explored the same issue without using an offensive story. So let's forget the story.
It is not my intention to offend. If there are other things I've said that people find offensive, and they can point them out specifically, I'm open to hearing about that. I believe in communication. But if people want to hide out and point fingers at me (as some are doing), and that's not particularly constructive or polite.
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I'm not taking issue with you as a person - but I don't really feel like having to defend myself in terms of my honesty, my personality, my etiquette, and all the other things you keep insinuating about me. You say that you would rather have someone just come out with what they have to say - but in all of your posts to me - you have all these statements about me that are thinly veiled insults about who I am, how I view myself, and how honestly I know myself.
Mostly, my statements like that happen when you (and others) say that I'm being offensive, resentful, hating, bashing, etc. What I was trying to do was question whether that was happening or not. Since people aren't pointing out what I said that was hating, bashing, etc., then that leaves us with a mystery. Where was the bashing? So what you saw as criticism from me was just my way of making the challenge: if I really bashed someone, show me where, otherwise, please reconsider why you see me that way. That's all I was trying to do, just make that request, and if that, by itself, is offensive, then I'm at a loss for what to say.
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I've been curious about your relationship history because you have all these theories and it sounds like you think you have women all figured out - and it's not a very pleasant portrayal of women. I'm sorry - I'm a woman. I can't help being offended.
I'm far from figuring anything out. I just go on working assumptions, based on experience, observations, and stories from others. There are endless discussions on this forum about women being attracted to "bad boys" -- I don't see how I'm saying anything more offensive than that, in fact, my theory is just the same thing with different words (e.g., "stud"). If someone can explain why I'm being singled out as being so much more offensive than that, I'd like to know. And if you have better ideas than mine on why people see what they see (e.g., men keep asking why they keep noticing that all the women in a party are trying to bed one particular guy and ignoring the rest -- I'm tired of that topic too, so I try to offer my guesses, so guys can stop scratching their heads and move on), then I might go with your idea and throw mine out. We're all here to share ideas, or so I thought.
Bottom line, if I've been offensive, or mistaken, please point out where. Otherwise, I can't do anything about it. But if people want to call me "offensive" without explaining why (they know who they are), I can only assume that they don't really want to engage, maybe they just want to express that they're better than me, and that makes them feel good. Whatever turns them on, I guess.
Anyway, you asked about me. I hope I've answered your questions.
I think people change, but not fundamentally, as in their character probably remains about the same.
Also, I think most people would prefer someone who's been "good" all along.
Agreed. And there are many who have a good time in their 20s who are also "good". That's been my experience at least. Not that the men I've loved haven't made mistakes along the way and were reckless, but why stew over it? crabman is on point below. Of course, there's a difference between experience (negative or not) and no experience at all. The latter seems to be more problematic for a number of folk.
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Originally Posted by crabman1
Every day you wake up with an opportunity to say I will forgive, I will accept, I will let go, and do so... I have no special skills and I have done this, in my case it was mostly myself I had to forgive but it doesn't matter. What is past is done and it cannot be changed. Let it go and be free.
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Originally Posted by JustJulia
Hey, Hans? I'm not sure if you saw my post to you because you didn't respond
I read it and it was an excellent post. Very insightful, Julia.
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Dewdrop93
