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You don't get it. They had no clue what they should be expecting . . . but they had definite ideas about what they wanted to expect and they were simply WRONG. They were wrong about the nature of God and about what He wanted from them. They didn't get ANY of it right. But the actual history fits what was prophesied . . . as shown above. Things that would not happen for centuries AFTER His death but written centuries BEFORE His birth!!! There is no way to rig that, Rafius. Well at least you see the major difference between your lame Quran cites and the ones I provided (only a small sample BTW) from the Bible about Christ. Mine were not ambiguous..
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
And I have to reiterate that the Jesus prophecies are of a rather different kind. While the quranic prophecies are more of the OT 'vaguely fit' type like the paths of the sea or the ones about the earth hung on nothing (see? Science in the Bible!') rather like the Quranic one I saw about the sun moving above the mountains, proving that the earth's rotation was known, the Jesus ones are unrelated bits of OT writ ripped out of context and used to base a bit of Jesus on. And not a bit of pre - existent Jesus - story that it seemed to fit, but was used to create the Jesus story.
If we understand that the prophecies are fulfilled retrospectively with the building up of the Jesus -story by the Christian gospel -creators, then we see though the trick of 'Jesus fulfilled 300 prophecies' with which the evangelists attempt to bamboozle us.
Of course they are validated retrospectively . . . they were written centuries BEFORE Christ was born and continued to be validated centuries AFTER His death. That is how it works. What you have to ask yourself is How on earth did Isaiah produce them . . . given his ignorance and barbarity?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I am saying that what the OT interpreters considered the relevant "messianic" prophesies were biased by the worldly and carnal concerns they were faced with . . . not any embedded God-inspired spiritual messages. They were looking at the wrong things expecting what they wanted to expect. Christ corrected their misunderstanding and tried to lead them to the correct ones by feeding them "carnal spiritual milk." The Jews sought salvation in the scriptures . . . yet they taught of Christ . . . but it was completely missed by the Jews. It has taken the perspective of centuries to see the actual inspirations received by our ignorant ancient ancestors. But when using the lens of history and what has actually happened the real inspirations are easy to see . . . especially regarding the impact of Christ (or as the unbelievers prefer the Legend of Christ). If as we can clearly see . . . the inspirations prophesied about our species spiritual evolution actually happened . . . what real difference would it make that it was based on legend, btw??? Ok . . . in Daniel the rise of the main religious beliefs were prophesied. The problem with the typical analyses of the Daniel prophesies is they are not interpreted spiritually . . . applying them to the impact on our spiritual understanding or beliefs . . . NOT worldly events. Secular contemporaneous historical analysis is a common misuse of scriptures. Scriptures are inspirations recorded primarily to aid our consciousnesses in understanding God, our spiritual evolution and our ultimate purpose . . . not to provide a historical or anthropological description of our past! We should NOT be looking for the secular significance of what is written. We should always seek out the spiritual significance . . . i.e., what was the impact on our beliefs . . . since scripture is dedicated to revelations of spiritual significance rather than secular significance.
Using Daniel as worldly prophesy . . . you would have to exclude Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome from contention as the beasts (kingdoms) because despite its successes Rome did NOT devour the whole earth (and the world has not ended). Since no other "kingdom" has yet dominated the world, the vision must refer to things unfulfilled so no reasonable symbolic relationships could be attached to any other secular kingdoms. It is also far more likely that it is a religious "kingdom" that Christ will preside over . . . since God's kingdom is within and the idea of actual kingdoms is gradually disappearing from human society.
The prophesies in Daniel are repeatedly referred to in discussions of the end days.
Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 2:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Daniel 8:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Daniel's dream about the four beasts in Daniel 7 is controversial because people keep trying to use a carnal and secular historical bias instead of a spiritual perspective for interpretation. Secular kingdoms are NOT the focus of Daniel's dream in Daniel 7. The Bible is first and foremost a spiritual book. Our consciousnesses are on a spiritual quest, not a carnal secular one.
It is much easier to draw symbolic spiritual connections to Daniel’s dream using as "kingdoms" the religious faiths that have emerged and persist even to this day. It is also important to remember that the order of appearance in the dream has nothing to do with the order of appearance historically. Linear time sequences were NOT part of the mindset of Daniel and our ancient ancestors . . . the character and specifics ALONE identify the "kingdoms" . . . NOT the order of appearance.
Daniel 7 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
From Daniel 7:2, the origin of the beasts,
. . . And behold the four winds of heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts, different one from another, came up out of the sea.
Thus, the origin of the beasts is heaven, a logical source of religious beliefs.
From Daniel 7:4,
. . . The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle: I beheld till her wings were plucked off and she was lifted up from the earth, and stood upon her feet as a man, and the heart of a man was given to her.
This would be a reference to Judaism (the lion of Juda) from whom the wings of eternity were plucked and the heart of Jesus was given to her in crucifixion.
From Daniel 7:5,
. . . and behold another beast like a bear stood up on one side: and there were three rows in the mouth thereof, and in the teeth thereof, and thus they said to it: Arise, devour much flesh.
This is a reference to Islam, (the bear of Persia) and the rows of teeth are the offshoots of it. Indeed, the holy war or Jihad that established Islam "devoured much flesh" and it continues to do so.
From Daniel 7:6,
. . . After this I beheld, and lo, another like a leopard, and it had upon it four wings as of a fowl, and the beast had four heads, and power was given to it.
The four heads immediately bring to mind Brahmanism (the leopard of India). Originally five heads were assigned to Brahma, but one was destroyed by Siva. The four heads symbolize the main offshoots of it. The power that was given to it was probably the Taoist philosophy, or the way of life which stresses charity (agape love). The wings most likely symbolize the capability of each offshoot for flight into heaven.
From Daniel 7:7,
. . . After this I beheld in the vision of the night, and lo, a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful, and exceeding strong, it had great iron teeth, eating and breaking in pieces, and treading down the rest with its feet.
This would be the Christianity of Roman Catholicism, (the Iron of the industrial revolution) and the eating and breaking in pieces, signifies the splitting into various "Protestant" sects that it has been undergoing during its spread throughout the world.
From Daniel 7:23
23And thus he said: The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be greater than all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
<snip> (References to the many Christian Kings of Europe)
From Daniel 7:28
28 Hitherto is the end of the Word.
The phrase "end of the Word," since the Word is God (John 1:1) would seem to further corroborate this general line of interpretation. Since the fourth beast is Christianity . . . which seems to have special significance, e.g. "shall devour the whole earth" . . . I am confident that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Probably why you believe all that 'prophecy' tripe mate!
Not really, mate . . . you and everyone else here know WHY I actually believe it with such certainty. But intellectually . . . what I have said about the retrospective view of our prophesied spiritual evolution seen through the eyes of our actual history . . . is compelling.
But intellectually . . . what I have said about the retrospective view of our prophesied spiritual evolution seen through the eyes of our actual history . . . is compelling.
Of course they are validated retrospectively . . . they were written centuries BEFORE Christ was born and continued to be validated centuries AFTER His death. That is how it works. What you have to ask yourself is How on earth did Isaiah produce them . . . given his ignorance and barbarity?
Not really, mate . . . you and everyone else here know WHY I actually believe it with such certainty. But intellectually . . . what I have said about the retrospective view of our prophesied spiritual evolution seen through the eyes of our actual history . . . is compelling.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Only to those that believe in mythology.
What mythology? I am simply talking about the evolution of the spiritual beliefs of humanity having been fairly accurately prophesied by ignorant savages claiming to be inspired by God. I suppose there are other explanations for it . . . but mythology would not be one of them.
What mythology? I am simply talking about the evolution of the spiritual beliefs of humanity having been fairly accurately prophesied by ignorant savages claiming to be inspired by God. I suppose there are other explanations for it . . . but mythology would not be one of them.
Of course they are validated retrospectively . . . they were written centuries BEFORE Christ was born and continued to be validated centuries AFTER His death. That is how it works. What you have to ask yourself is How on earth did Isaiah produce them . . . given his ignorance and barbarity?.
I find it hard to believe that you really do not understand my argument. If you really believe that your post makes any sense in view of my explanation that the Jesus story can be shown to have been built up using OT material, your problem is worse than I thought.
I find it hard to believe that you really do not understand my argument. If you really believe that your post makes any sense in view of my explanation that the Jesus story can be shown to have been built up using OT material, your problem is worse than I thought.
Why do they have so much difficulty with it bro?? The NT authors knew the story about the expected Jewish Messiah and they knew what the Messiah was supposed to do. All they had to do was write the novel so that their Jesus fitted the bill for the Jewish Messiah. It was a simple job....and they still got it wrong!!!
I do not understand the need for the continuous over top sarcasm especially when others can not respond back in the same manner, it just all comes across as a spoiled pet taking advantage of the situation, a little child in a candy shop.
I find it hard to believe that you really do not understand my argument. If you really believe that your post makes any sense in view of my explanation that the Jesus story can be shown to have been built up using OT material, your problem is worse than I thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Why do they have so much difficulty with it bro?? The NT authors knew the story about the expected Jewish Messiah and they knew what the Messiah was supposed to do. All they had to do was write the novel so that their Jesus fitted the bill for the Jewish Messiah. It was a simple job....and they still got it wrong!!!
Ok . . . both of you stop and put together your two criticisms and claims here. Do you see any contradictions? If they used the OT JEWISH expectations for the Messiah . . . they would NOT have got it wrong! In any case, this does NOT account for the accuracy of the descriptions of our species spiritual evolution centuries AFTER Christ's death and the death of His Apostles . . . in those OT "prophesies" from centuries BEFORE His birth!. Don't like the word "prophesy" . . . use whatever word you prefer . . . the outcomes are the same.
I believe In Jesus and every thing He said he is ,more so now than ever before and the fellowship with the Father is so fine I am humbled to have His attention.
The power of Jesus name alone is significant , it is a shame so many people are choosing to be antagonistic .
But in a self centerd world, what can you expect?
God is not a thing , he is a real person, that chooses those He wishes to befriend; and those that insist on rebellion, He is under no obligation to compromise what so ever.
Jesus said God is "Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth ."
In a world of liars defending their own agenda does not force God's hand to compromise by means of vote ,and to assume so makes these people an even geater offence, no matter what they might claim.
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the ife , no man can come to the Father but by Me."
The disciples witnessed a voice from heaven saying "this is my beloved son hear Him"
Point is Jesus is both suppotred by the Father and te Holy Spirit and His continued interaction among His believers for healing and many other intervention in their every day life.
No other man on this planet has ever had this kind of impact this kind of controvercy , and He even foretold that the conflict would continue long after He was gone to his believers.
If Alla and the God of heaven were the same, why is there such vigoroius hatrid for christians and Jews by them?
Because they are not the same , That is why.
Ok . . . both of you stop and put together your two criticisms and claims here. Do you see any contradictions? If they used the OT JEWISH expectations for the Messiah . . . they would NOT have got it wrong! In any case, this does NOT account for the accuracy of the descriptions of our species spiritual evolution centuries AFTER Christ's death and the death of His Apostles . . . in those OT "prophesies" from centuries BEFORE His birth!. Don't like the word "prophesy" . . . use whatever word you prefer . . . the outcomes are the same.
They got it wrong in that they quotemined OT script and used to build up screenplay to pad out the Jesus story. That story - padding is discrepant, unhistorical and retrospective. Whatever semantic jiggery you use, they prove nothing other than the unreliability of the gospels in telling us anything reliable about Jesus, what he said, did or was. Why is is this so difficult for you?
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