If we Christians are wrong about Jesus (that he's not God), will God punish us harshly for worshipping a man as God? (Isaiah, prophecy)
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That's cool Ella. Now all you have to do is provide verifiable, testable evidence that the New Testament of the King James Bible is true. Can you do that?
No. I cannot. Can you prove that it isn't?
Whether the text is true or false is/was not at issue. The issue was whether or not "The" was appropriate before "Christ" - where "Yes" was your stance and AFAIK, you were the first to offer that opinion.
I noted the KJV of the Bible's NT because it is the one I read/read. True or untrue, the text is the text.
I can prove that many things in it are not true. Will that do?
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Whether the text is true or false is/was not at issue. The issue was whether or not "The" was appropriate before "Christ" - where "Yes" was your stance and AFAIK, you were the first to offer that opinion.
Jesus THE Christ is the correct term....if you believe in it that is.
Jesus THE Christ is the correct term....if you believe in it that is.
I'm not sure about that...during, for example, late Roman and early to high medieval times, didn't people often call their kings by their name and then just "king"? For example, you hear in literature quite a bit someone being called, say, "Aelle King" (Just an example, not sure I have a literary reference for Aelle's name being used this way specifically), particularly when addressed. ("What say you, Aelle king?") It was only later that we, in the English language, routinely added "the" or transposed, due to grammar, the two (King Aelle).
So "Jesus Christ" wouldn't be so weird even if you're saying he's the Christ and not that his last name was Christ.
I suppose one could say 'Messiah Jesus' as one might say 'King Jesus'. In fact 'Christ Jesus' is sometimes used. So long as it is understood that 'Christ' meaning masiach/messiah or saviour (though what the saving related to is a matter of doctrine) is a title rather than it being a family name, it's all cool.
That's right; but 'higher power' did not always mean 'supernatural' power. Many kings were anointed with oils...priests too.
I've been blessed with olive oil, as have my kids and many people I know. There is a saying in the LDS/Mormon teachings - to not speak evil of the Lord's annointed - but most LDS don't realize that includes them and many others.
My husband carries some pure olive oil in his key-chain, as do many who have blessed with the priesthood.
I don't take things like that literally - the oil is symbolic, maybe representative of the strenuous and particular purifying process required to make olive oil...
-Cleaning the olives (cleaning ourselves within - purifying our thoughts)
-Griding them into a paste (humility - "broken heart and contrite spirit" so God can work with us)
-Malaxing the paste (maybe represents a balance - moderation in all things)
-Separating the oil from the vegetable water and solids (like "setting apart" & purifying/healing in blessings)
What started out as a bitter fruit, is transformed into something sweet.
I imagine there is potentially deeper symbolic meaning because there are other parables (spiritual lessons) related to olives... Olive oil represents the spiritual preparation in the lamps of the 10 virgins in preparation for the bridegroom... and an olive leaf was first carried by the dove to the ark.
The only difference is ones motivation comes from the thought of "Jesus take the wheel", or as with me, "I better take the wheel" and make this better, escape this situation, or look for the positives and go from there. I should help others because we rely on each other and I can sympathize.
Hi PoppySeed,
You've given me a lot to think about & I appreciate it.
You seem to be a deep thinker, which I respect.
I agree with you about taking the wheel, except that often our egos (pride) get in the way.
I'm still figuring this out, so don't hold me to anything definite, but I think that the idea of God/Jesus or any higher power is essentially connecting with our higher (subconscious) selves - yet I also believe such consciousness is in and throughout everything (like dark energy/matter). Our ego is the one that wants to take credit for the gifts we've been given but haven't really earned, so praying to someone/some principle higher, is a way to avoid that trap.
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A misconception I run into often with others who believe is that life isn't full of passion, compassion, imagination, or hope for something better when you're an atheist. I've said this a million times and I'll say it again. We dream, we imagine, we take life seriously and sometimes not so seriously. We just don't justify actions with our imaginary thoughts. The good isn't God, the evil isn't Satan.
I understand where you're coming from and agree partly, except I think you and most Atheists don't realize their issue is really with semantics, not with worshipping a god.
IE: You believe in good and evil... or you might refer to it as health and sickness, or whatever word you prefer to use. Some call it God and Satan. I aknowledge that many religious interpretations are screwed up with cognitive distortions based on centuries of power-hungry political and religious leaders. Personally, I think that generally, both Orthodox Theist and Atheists are being dishonest...
Do you have priorities in your life? Of course you do, for one thing, right now, your priority is reading or posting on this forum - because of all of the things you could choose to do, this has taken priority of them all. God is a process fufilling itself - a verb like LOVE. One's personal experience with god is that which we worship, aka prioritize. This is more honest than claiming to worship an ideal or icon once a year, or once a week.
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I sometimes imagine there is a creator but I don't imagine it to the point of walking around expecting something for you and me because of my vivid dreaming. Taking a belief, my thoughts into reality for all to adhere too could be dangerous, IMO. That is the only difference between you and me. I would need proof my thoughts were real to bless you, judge you or convict you. A God I simply "believe" in doesn't justify my actions nor yours.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by needing proof that your thoughts were real to bless, judge or convict. I'll guess and just correct me if I'm wrong...
It seems that you require proof or justified reason, to believe in something, and even more so to act on it. I agree that how we define God affects how we esteem and treat ourselves and others, so it can be dangerous. This is why I think an honest definition of God/one's personal god (like what one prioritizes) is called for.
We cannot help but think in subjectively limited, illusional ways. Most of our thoughts lack proof - we can't help it. We regularly prematurely conclude without knowing all there is to know - because life goes on and requires some action on our part, even if we don't fully understand everything involved. Consider goals that others told you were impossible, but you proved them wrong... you had no proof & in fact, you may have been considered crazy for believing - having faith - in something despite the odds against you.
Beliefs have power! Consider the placebo effect.
Also, consider people who've been through hell, but have not only survived, but have thrived because of it! How could they THRIVE? Functional illusions. Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change, and often that calls for creative, imaginative thinking...
(IE: Jewish Father in consentration camp told his son it was a game, to protect his psychological health...
Who knows what lies behind the curtain over the rainbow, it could be a God or it could've just been man pretending to be God and no God like being appears. I just admit I have no idea, that it's just me imagining how we got here or where we will be going. Its personal. Therefor, I'm just grateful for my existence without being grateful for what's coming before it does. To just exist is substantial to me. I can prove I exist. I can imagine why.
I love your honesty.
It's how I feel too, except I WANT to believe in more... and while I realize I'm always fooling myself... when I fool myself in productive, motivating ways, I want to run with it!
If the God of the Bible really is God, whose foremost commandment was to worship only Him, then yes, I believe people who deified a human and worshiped that human for any reason will be punished according to whatever that God's will is.
I think the God of the Torah/OT made it pretty clear that no one, not even any god, was to be worshiped except Him. Period.
It's just as humorous to me that someone might think Jesus The Christ is correct. But then again, you never know. It's a funny thought to see adults debate a heavenly creatures name and desires for them, IMO. Especially when those thoughts differ so much, down to what the Gods should correctly be called by name.
Trying to prove what others have thought when thought can change. It can be funny.
Sad though when people pretend to know what he desires from them and they become judgmental of others.
I am not Quaker, but I know some and I like the Friends' POV: "I cannot tell you how to experience God; I can only know how I experience God."
It's not something I've thought that much about, but if Christians are wrong and Jesus was not God made flesh, and the Jews, Muslims.etc are correct, I wonder how God, assuming the God of the Bible/Torah/Quran still exists, will treat Christians? I'm not saying I worry too much about it, but for the first time I really thought about it today, imagine if Christianity was a Jewish/Roman cult? It's kind of scary to think, I don't want you to second guess your faith, but I guess it's what atheists have been saying all along.
I wonder if we'll be sent to the deepest depths of hell, or endure a painful destruction? Do you think he could be at all merciful?
I don't know any Christians that read the Bible call Jesus 'God'. He's the son of God. We pray to the 'Father', Son, and Holy Spirit'.
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