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No. I also don't see the relevance. Or, rather, I see where you're attempting to make an analogy, but it isn't fleshed out enough to really comment on. Maybe you could attempt to clarify?
The point about Sesame Street is inane. I don't find actual puppets disgusting. That should be clear to anyone with a modicum of critical reasoning.
The use of animals in warfare is old-fashioned now. I wouldn't approve of a general riding into battle in today's warfare. But in the end, humans have a level of cognition beyond animals that sets them apart. I'm all for responsible use of animals, when they are used in a service capacity.
But again: the idea I find disgusting is that a god would create a universe for the sole purpose of moving the pieces around in his Infallible Plan. That isn't a universe worth creating. If we exist only to serve the whim of god's Infallible Plan, then life is a dreary, ultimately meaningless thing, when viewed from our vantage point. And I find religions that have these features to be utterly depressing and disturbing.
But what if a man guided a horse through a forest fire on a path only he knew would get them to safety. He overrode (no pun intended) the horses will did he not? Yet we are not the least upset that both he and the horse made it safely through. According to your scenario he should have let the horse figure the path out itself while he walked to safety so as not be accused of making a puppet of the horse.
But what if a man guided a horse through a forest fire on a path only he knew would get them to safety. He overrode (no pun intended) the horses will did he not? Yet we are not the least upset that both he and the horse made it safely through. According to your scenario he should have let the horse figure the path out itself while he walked to safety so as not be accused of making a puppet of the horse.
For this scenario to work, the one leading the horse has to also design the forest and force the horse to go inside the forest in the first place. Maybe the horse didn't want to go into the forest. Too bad, horse. You get no choice.
It's another poor analogy. Please address my points directly, if we are going to discuss this. What about the universe as puppetry is beneficial to you? Why is the idea that we have no intrinsic value other than to be led one that warms your heart so?
For this scenario to work, the one leading the horse has to also design the forest and force the horse to go inside the forest in the first place. Maybe the horse didn't want to go into the forest. Too bad, horse. You get no choice.
It's another poor analogy. Please address my points directly, if we are going to discuss this. What about the universe as puppetry is beneficial to you? Why is the idea that we have no intrinsic value other than to be led one that warms your heart so?
The analogy of the horse is spot on.
The Bible is very clear that God directs our steps. He doesn't ask for our advise and doesn't need it. "God is working all together for good." I imagine you have a problem with that?
"God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will."
"God gives to all, life and breath and ALL."
You see that as bad because you don't see the end goal God has for all.
God created a forest. God created a horse. The horse doesn't think much of God. The horse thinks it is much smarter than God. God created a forest fire and in the midst of it all rode the horse for miles through the burning forest directing each step until it finally reached safety. Now the horse not only knows God is smarter but is a life-long friend because God also saved its life.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
That leaves a question of, do you have to be evil in some way to create evil? I guess that won't settle anything though.
On top of that, if we are supposedly living our lives by "the plan", why do so many who believe want to change the plan. You know, praying to make some change in someones or their own life. Seems that if you believe you are living a plan set forth by some all knowing being, your praying for change is a little presumptuous on your part.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
That leaves a question of, do you have to be evil in some way to create evil? I guess that won't settle anything though.
On top of that, if we are supposedly living our lives by "the plan", why do so many who believe want to change the plan. You know, praying to make some change in someones or their own life. Seems that if you believe you are living a plan set forth by some all knowing being, your praying for change is a little presumptuous on your part.
BP72,
you bring up some excellent thoughts.
For me, when I pray, it is not so much to change God's will for what is happening in my life but rather to align myself with His will. A good example of this was when I went to speak at a church in Pennsylvania over a weekend. When I got back to Michigan my home was broken into and some very expensive things were stolen. As I lay in bed that evening I prayed that God would help me mature through this event. I told God that it must be that the person who broke in needed the stuff more than me. I said: "God, you specifically chose the person(s) to break into my place, the time for it to happen and what they were to take. So I thank you for that and thank you for this opportunity to grow in faith and in trust of You. Eventually I got most of my things back but learned some very valuable lessons to boot.
So prayer is not so much to change God's will in a matter but to align ourselves with that will.
P.S. as to creating evil . . . a car maker is not a car but comprised of many different engineers etc. Likewise the creator of evil is not evil but has many departments to produce the smashing effect needed for good.
Ok so according to some theists, god has an infallible plan. And since evil must and does occur as part of the plan, doesn't that make the plan and therefore god evil? Can anyone clarify this?
If God has a plan, we are not privy to it..why would He want to share His plan with all us sinners?
I told God that it must be that the person who broke in needed the stuff more than me.
I'm sure that was their rationaization but the simpler and more likely reason was that they were lazy and/or greedy as well as lacking in respect for other people's property. Just my $0.02 based on thieves I've known ;-)
But acknowledging that would make you justifiably angry and anger is a sin, right?
I used to cut people way too much slack like that too, thinking it was nobler, with the result that I got walked on alot. Although I never took it so far as thanking god for failing to keep me safe and bless me as per various promises. Oh, wait, that's another taboo ... can't question god. If things go right, he did it. If things go wrong, it's a test, or the work of the devil or of men. Probably, even my fault somehow.
What's wrong with this picture?? A great deal, if you're willing to actually look at it.
For me, when I pray, it is not so much to change God's will for what is happening in my life but rather to align myself with His will. A good example of this was when I went to speak at a church in Pennsylvania over a weekend. When I got back to Michigan my home was broken into and some very expensive things were stolen. As I lay in bed that evening I prayed that God would help me mature through this event. I told God that it must be that the person who broke in needed the stuff more than me. I said: "God, you specifically chose the person(s) to break into my place, the time for it to happen and what they were to take. So I thank you for that and thank you for this opportunity to grow in faith and in trust of You. Eventually I got most of my things back but learned some very valuable lessons to boot.
So prayer is not so much to change God's will in a matter but to align ourselves with that will.
P.S. as to creating evil . . . a car maker is not a car but comprised of many different engineers etc. Likewise the creator of evil is not evil but has many departments to produce the smashing effect needed for good.
Considering this claim, to be consistent, I suspect you don't pray for someone to be healed, or to be "saved", or to have a safe trip, or for God to keep your children safe? These would only be selfish and asking your god to change his plan.
Considering this claim, to be consistent, I suspect you don't pray for someone to be healed, or to be "saved", or to have a safe trip, or for God to keep your children safe? These would only be selfish and asking your god to change his plan.
Of course I pray for all those things above. But I preface the request with "if it's Thy will." The basic elements of the Greek word behind the word "prayer" is "toward-well-have." Prayer is that it may be well toward someone or something.
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