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The word "establish" means far more than what you interpret.
There have been countless court cases concerning this. You can find all of them on the internet and read for yourself.
Yes, I have read an entire book about the biggest seperation of church and state cases. But how do you know the word "establish" means so much more? During the time of the men who wrote this, chruch and religion were far more intergraded than it is today....more so than I think is right. The word establish means just that, government cannot establish a religion and/or force people to adhere to it. It does not mean that someone has to drop their religious beliefs at the front door at every public area. This is no where close to violating the first amendment.
I have no desire to see prayer, as such, re-introduced in the public school system. Prayer to any specific deity has no place in school. However, I simply don't see a moment of silence as being the same as prayer. A child can pray or not pray, whatever they feel is right for them. One may pray to the Christian god, to Allah, or to the gods/goddesses of Wica. One may think about their homework, or their upcoming ballgame. One may appreciate that moment of silence, just to stare out the window, and watch the birds!
The reason I stated that government should be kept out of it, was because of the original story. In that news piece, we were told that the legislative body of Illinois, (i.e government), created this law, forcing the schools to comply. Here, we see a conjoining of state and church. Going with the premise that a moment of silence equals prayer, this means that the government is forcing prayer/religion to be practiced in the public schools, (remember that you said that the government should be involved). Now, we are dealing with a two-edged sword.
I think that local school districts need to set their own policies, without state or federal interference, but within the perimeters of the First Amendment. In other words, the State has no business setting the local school's policies, so long as the schools are complying with the First Amendment. Of course, here is where we differ and disagree, because you interpret a moment of silence with prayer, and I don't.
Well, basically I'm just going to come out and say what I really think: I'm right and you're wrong. Setting aside a "moment of silence" where students may decide to pray flies in the face of the first amendment, is a waste of time, and is nothing more than political point-scoring by the religious right. Why do they do it? Because they can...simple. There is no legitimate basis for setting aside instructional time for something students can do the other 16 hours of the day.
We can "agree to disagree", but that's not going to change the fact that this is wrong, wrong, WRONG. These "moments of silence" are part of the religious right's plan to evangelize in public schools. It's nothing but intimidation of those who aren't Christian. Contrary to popular belief, this is NOT a Christian country...the government is meant to be secular, i.e. blind to religious differences. How I wish the religious right would remember that, but no...they'd rather pee all over the Constitution and bring us all one step closer to forcing children to pray in public schools and using our public institutions as instruments of evangelism. It's unacceptable, and I will continue to fight it as long as I draw breath.
In other words, the State has no business setting the local school's policies, so long as the schools are complying with the First Amendment.
The problem with this is that if this is a public school, then whether it is local or not is irrelevant - it is the government, the "state", mandating the "moment of silence" aka prayer. Public schools are government schools. This would be a church/state issue if one local school district made the rule just as much as at a state level.
1 minute x 180 school days x 12 years of public school...
3 Hours a year...
36 hours during the course of the child's education...
wasted.
Our tax dollars being spend to pay teachers to NOT teach our children? What kind of madness is that?
Pray during recess, pray during lunch, or sneak a bible behind your science book and pray during class if you must. You don't get to spend my tax dollars to violate constitutional law.
1 minute x 180 school days x 12 years of public school...
3 Hours a year...
36 hours during the course of the child's education...
wasted.
Our tax dollars being spend to pay teachers to NOT teach our children? What kind of madness is that?
Pray during recess, pray during lunch, or sneak a bible behind your science book and pray during class if you must. You don't get to spend my tax dollars to violate constitutional law.
*applause*
Just think of what children could have learned in those 3 hours per year.
I went through the public school system here in Dallas, K-12, 1980-1993. We did not have organized prayer nor did we have a moment of silence every day, and I don't recall anyone complaining about their religious liberties being violated. We had bible groups that met at school outside of school hours (like other clubs did) and students would sometimes study bibles or even korans at lunchtime. Some students would whip out prayer rugs and face Mecca at lunchtime. I would see some kids do a quick sign of the cross or a silent prayer before a test, and I even saw some kids praying before/after school in groups. The Jewish kids would take time off during the high holy days to go to temple, the Catholics took time off to go to Ash Wednesday/Good Friday masses. No biggie...nobody's instructional time was infringed upon, and all of that is 100% Constitutional.
I guess some evangelicals just won't be satisfied until they are forcing everyones' children to pray.
1 minute x 180 school days x 12 years of public school...
3 Hours a year...
36 hours during the course of the child's education...
wasted.
Our tax dollars being spend to pay teachers to NOT teach our children? What kind of madness is that?
Pray during recess, pray during lunch, or sneak a bible behind your science book and pray during class if you must. You don't get to spend my tax dollars to violate constitutional law.
Where did you come up with the 1 minute time-frame?? Pull it out of your butt?? If you were paying any attention at all to the subject at hand ~ State of Illinois moment of silence ~ you would know that the time set aside before each day begins is 15 seconds. Better adjust your "hours wasted" theory, satan.
Last edited by Sooner_Nation_60; 10-31-2007 at 03:58 PM..
Reason: typo
I'd prefer it if they'd let the kids take a day and a half off and reflect silently at home if it's going to be non-learning time anyway. I'd rather get all my 15 second bits in one big chunk.
I'd prefer it if they'd let the kids take a day and a half off and reflect silently at home if it's going to be non-learning time anyway. I'd rather get all my 15 second bits in one big chunk.
I'm fine with 15 SECONDS a day ~ they can pick their nose or scratch their butts for all I care; but this liberal uber-hysteria over every single thing is out of control....
I don't really mind if people pray in school (privately), and I'm fine with a moment of silence. We had it, the entire time I was in public school.
However (and I'm redacting a bit here on my earlier position) perhaps we would be better served by saving our tax money used on these lawsuits and just have people pray BEFORE they get to school? Where is it that someone has to pray when they get to school? Certainly not in any religious text that I know of.
Yes, I have read an entire book about the biggest seperation of church and state cases. But how do you know the word "establish" means so much more?
Where's the word "establish" in the first amendment? I can't seem to find it in my copy. There is "establishment", but that's a different word with a very specific legal meaning.
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