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I have learned from the different people here that everyone has a different idea of what God is and what God is supposed to do - especially for them. Perhaps these man-made ideas are the problem. If I had prayed for a cure or a miracle for my dad, I wouldn't have gotten it. Had I believed that it was God's duty or responsibility to provide me that miracle, I would be real mad right now. I am hurting and I am grieving, but I am not mad at God. God never promised me a miracle. God promised me comfort, which He has given me.
Just to be clear, I'm not mad at god, either. I would be mad if I had continued to believe in the standard tri-omni god I was raised on, and which I am now arguing against.
It can't be repeated often enough, that you can't be angry at a being who is non-existent.
I don't think that literalists think it is god's duty or responsibility to provide any particular response to any particular prayer, but the problem that a literalist has is that the Bible does make very specific promises which can be "claimed". These include that god loves you and desires communication with you; that he will bless and protect you and yours if you're true to him; that he is a father-figure as well as a "friend that sticks closer than a brother"; that praying in faith will always be honored; that you can expect, at least, "the peace of god that passes all understanding" in any situation. There is even an invitation to test god and see if he doesn't open the floodgates of blessing if you simply ask.
When you have to jump through rings of fire and eat little pieces of glass to reconcile your hellish realities with all these warm and fuzzy empty promises, it rapidly gets to the point where it would have been better if these things had never been stated in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
The people on this forum have taught me that everyone has different expectations of God. Maybe it is our expectations that are wrong. What God promised and what we define as promises might be two different things. It would certainly make a difference in our perceptions of God.
Maybe it is. Or maybe the simpler explanation is that our greatest expectation of god ... that he exists, and is interventionist on our behalf in any way at all, is what is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
You said: "I always say that theism, no matter how you adopt it, is a leaky abstraction which is nevertheless adequate until it isn't."
I can't disagree with you here. It is adequate until it isn't. But again, I think a lot of that is human ideals of God. For me, it is not a leaky abstraction. But then I don't assess God with "church" standards. I had a great-uncle who was a hell fire and brimstone preacher. He taught that bad things only happen to bad people and if you are bad, bad things would happen to you. But, if you live for God, nothing bad will happen to you. I think most rational people would see the fallacy in this thinking. When he buried his last grown son (of 2 children), he stepped out of the pulpit and away from God. God owed him a happy and carefree life where you don't bury your children - because he believed. I can't even imagine burying one child, much less 2, but were his expectations of God his own or God's promise? They were his own and that of his religion. I wonder how different his reaction might have been had he believed (and preached) something else. His religion was adequate, until it wasn't. Perhaps, we will all come to that conclusion.
By this reasoning, we must adopt beliefs that are concordant with experienced reality. And this is precisely what I have done. Any god there actually is in my experience, is absent, indifferent and/or non-existent. For practical purposes these are, to me, all the same thing.
But this is only a starting-point. My faith was run aground on those particular shoals, but since then, I have found many other reasons that deeply resonate with me, to disbelieve in any sort of deity and to take my hope from entirely different places.
I do not begrudge you or any believer hoping in god. In this life, one must do whatever works for you. As you are a believer who does not begrudge me hoping in human knowledge, science, technology and philosophy, we have no personal quarrel. This does not mean that I don't think that theism is on balance a drag on humanity at this point in humanity's development. Most people do not reach your level of self-awareness within theism because theism actively discourages free thought and unbridled self-awareness.
I think God does transcend our conceptions. I don't think humans have the ability to correctly conceive God. God does fall short of *our* conceptions usually. I don't think that is God's fault. I think it is the human conception that is at fault. I think He is better and bigger and more complicated than our imperfect understanding of truth, justice, and mercy. I think He does inspire emulation. I just don't think He does it by our standards.
Where gods are concerned, humans are always wrong. I'm not sure why that is, but it seems to be so. The result is a slew of paradoxical gods that are perfect, just, and loving on one hand and unforgiving, egotistical, murderous, and uncaring on the other. The Christian god is one such obvious example.
It is love without respect since none of our gods have ever asked we humans what WE wanted and then used his omnipotence to make or change the world to our specifications. No ... it's always been about what the god wants. Yes, he loves us, but he isn't going to give us any ... ANY ... input about the world in which we are forced to live.
That paradigm works really well for a god that doesn't exist - because you can't expect god to do anything other than what the god wants to do. It doesn't matter how mean and nasty or immoral it is (which includes much of the pain and suffering on this earth such as bone cancer in children). Certainly if WE had a say, one thing that would be asked for is that children are immune to disease and death and predation by other humans.
Unfortunately, when dealing with non-existent gods, we can't really ask for miracles nor can we beg for this god to change our world even a little bit to make it more fair or easy to live in. All that we can expect is for god to do things within the power of humanity or nature to accomplish.
Ergo, we cannot ask for god to sweep away all of the pain and suffering, all of the unfairness and arbitrary decisions concerning who gets to live a life of relative painlessness and who must struggle to endure every tick of the clock. We COULD ask that if a god actually existed - and this god was truly both good AND omnipotent.
But because no such god exists, pain and suffering exists. And humanity is always wrong in determining what we want from our gods. Instead, we have to do this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
As my beloved father lay dying of cancer a scant 3 years ago, I prayed. I didn't pray for a cure or a miracle. I prayed that God's will be done. I prayed for strength to face what I had to face and for peace on my heart that I could do whatever was asked of me. Even today, I pray that my loss will not consume me and that I can have comfort and peace in my heart. I have been given all that I prayed for.
What's the point to praying "God's will be done"? For believers, isn't everything "God's will" and does God really need a prayer from anyone to help him carry it out? Or is it an attempt to be magnanimous toward God - to say that, yes, God, you can be as miserable, unfair, unjust, and dispassionate as you want and I'll still be here worshiping you like the good little battered wife that I am!
At what point are we justified in kicking God to the curb and saying, "Exist or not, I want nothing more to do with you."
"I want nothing more to do with you either as a concept or a real entity."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
I have learned from the different people here that everyone has a different idea of what God is and what God is supposed to do - especially for them. Perhaps these man-made ideas are the problem. If I had prayed for a cure or a miracle for my dad, I wouldn't have gotten it. Had I believed that it was God's duty or responsibility to provide me that miracle, I would be real mad right now. I am hurting and I am grieving, but I am not mad at God. God never promised me a miracle. God promised me comfort, which He has given me.
The only reason why our Man-made ideas about God are problematic is because we expect God to live up to being ... well ... a God. Not just some entity that only cares about itself and its own agenda, not some entity that simply does its own will and cares literally nothing for our own lives. No, we want an actual protector, a parent-figure that has our best interests at heart, a guardian that keeps us from danger, a confidant that really does guide us through life. But as history unfolds, I think even some believers are starting to realize that no such entity exists and that the concept of God continues to get smaller and less powerful with each passing year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
The people on this forum have taught me that everyone has different expectations of God. Maybe it is our expectations that are wrong. What God promised and what we define as promises might be two different things. It would certainly make a difference in our perceptions of God.
Perhaps our biggest erroneous perception of God is the perception that God even exists.
I think God does transcend our conceptions. I don't think humans have the ability to correctly conceive God. God does fall short of *our* conceptions usually. I don't think that is God's fault. I think it is the human conception that is at fault. I think He is better and bigger and more complicated than our imperfect understanding of truth, justice, and mercy. I think He does inspire emulation.
Trying to figure out how one is supposed to emulate something they can't understand.
Keep in mind that this isn't the Medical Forum.
The question is "Does God cause pain?"
Knowing the physical explanation for why there is pain or suffering does nothing to address why he (assuming you believe there is a He) saw/sees fit to allow it.
The belief is supposedly Intelligent Design. We can all probably think up a way for a warning system to have been set up that would have achieved the same purpose , since you state that this is the best reason for it.
Even that doesn't address the pain of mental suffering caused by such things as loss of loved ones or knowing they are in such pain and being helpless to do anything about it.
It sure doesn't explain how it benefits that poor gnu that's being turned into a living buffet bar.
I think I already answered this - if you believe that God created life, whether through evolution or not, then yes he also created pain. Maybe you could have thought up an "early warning system", but to be effective it has to be uncomfortable enough to get one's attention.
Again to the issue of grief over losing a loved one. If a close member of your family passes away, you will feel grief. Why? Because you felt close to that person, you had a loving relationship with them. Such relationships are good, I think you'll agree. If you don't feel any anguish when they die or are in pain then I guess you weren't so close after all.
And it might not seem to benefit that specific gnu at that specific time, but his whole species wouldn't even be here if it weren't for pain.
Just to be clear, I'm not mad at god, either. I would be mad if I had continued to believe in the standard tri-omni god I was raised on, and which I am now arguing against.
It can't be repeated often enough, that you can't be angry at a being who is non-existent.
I'm sorry, Mordant, if I seemed to be saying that you were mad at God for any reason. That was not my intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I don't think that literalists think it is god's duty or responsibility to provide any particular response to any particular prayer, but the problem that a literalist has is that the Bible does make very specific promises which can be "claimed". These include that god loves you and desires communication with you; that he will bless and protect you and yours if you're true to him; that he is a father-figure as well as a "friend that sticks closer than a brother"; that praying in faith will always be honored; that you can expect, at least, "the peace of god that passes all understanding" in any situation. There is even an invitation to test god and see if he doesn't open the floodgates of blessing if you simply ask.
I'm not familiar with most of these things in the Bible. Maybe I just missed them, but most of this does not sound familiar to me. I have received "the peace of God that passes all understanding" (that "all" meaning myself and me alone. I certainly have not understood it, but I have felt it). I think God loves me and desires to communicate with me. I think he does bless us, but I don't think he necessarily protects us on this earth. I think that "praying in faith" depends on what you pray for. And, "it will always be honored" is also what you pray for. I don't know about an invitation to test God. I don't think the floodgates of blessing opens if you simply ask. Again, I think that it is what you ask for.
I think human expectations are the problem. I have an elderly aunt who prays every night to win the lottery. I don't think this is a prayer that God is going to answer, whether she happens to win the lottery or not. I need a new car, but I don't spend my time in prayer asking for one. But when a loved one's life hangs in the balance, we often asked for life, recovery, wellness. How is this any different that expecting God to pull your numbers up on the lottery or put a new car in your driveway? Some people get mad at God when prayers are not answered.
The Bible says "ask and ye shall receive". But what does that really mean? Does it mean a winning lottery ticket or a new car? I don't think so, but some do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
When you have to jump through rings of fire and eat little pieces of glass to reconcile your hellish realities with all these warm and fuzzy empty promises, it rapidly gets to the point where it would have been better if these things had never been stated in the first place.
I don't see myself having to do any of these things. But then I don't think "ask and ye shall receive" is about a winning lottery ticket or a new car - or about restoring life and health to a terminally sick person just because I love that person. It think that it is what people expect of God that makes God the culprit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Maybe it is. Or maybe the simpler explanation is that our greatest expectation of god ... that he exists, and is interventionist on our behalf in any way at all, is what is wrong.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. I think what is wrong is what we expect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
By this reasoning, we must adopt beliefs that are concordant with experienced reality. And this is precisely what I have done. Any god there actually is in my experience, is absent, indifferent and/or non-existent. For practical purposes these are, to me, all the same thing.
Again, I understand what you are saying. I've been there myself. Now, I different view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
But this is only a starting-point. My faith was run aground on those particular shoals, but since then, I have found many other reasons that deeply resonate with me, to disbelieve in any sort of deity and to take my hope from entirely different places.
I'm not challenging that. I never have and I never will. "One's own path". One must decide for him/herself what is what. I make a judgment for myself - only for me. Not for anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I do not begrudge you or any believer hoping in god. In this life, one must do whatever works for you. As you are a believer who does not begrudge me hoping in human knowledge, science, technology and philosophy, we have no personal quarrel. This does not mean that I don't think that theism is on balance a drag on humanity at this point in humanity's development. Most people do not reach your level of self-awareness within theism because theism actively discourages free thought and unbridled self-awareness.
Thank you. I believe in "live and let live". I think each has a right to his/her own conclusions - about everything - including vegan, just don't try to stand between me and the BBQ.
I certainly cannot disagree with you on what you have said. I don't think theism is as much of a problem as "church" ... but, then I am a theist. I do agree that theism (church) discourages free thought and unbridled self-awareness - and a lot of other important things.
Trying to figure out how one is supposed to emulate something they can't understand.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. I've been there, too - especially when I was listening to "church".
I believe I have an understanding of God. It is only right for me and it is how my own mind justifies God. My "ideas" of God are totally my own and not another living soul may agree with me. But that is ok because, for now, it satisfies my needs. It might not satisfy anyone else's needs, but that is ok, too. I don't think that "God" is a group endeavor. So if I am all alone in my beliefs and if I don't feel condemned by what I believe, then I figure I'm doing ok. I think that is the best any of us can do.
I think each has a right to his/her own conclusions - about everything - including vegan, just don't try to stand between me and the BBQ.
Ha ... my wife and stepson and I actually went full-on Vegan for about a month last year, just to see how the other 2% lives. It was ... enlightening, but I was ready to gnaw my arm off by the time it was over.
I would never be so foolish as to stand between a Southern gal and her BBQ, though. I may not fear god, but THAT I would fear.
Where gods are concerned, humans are always wrong. I'm not sure why that is, but it seems to be so. The result is a slew of paradoxical gods that are perfect, just, and loving on one hand and unforgiving, egotistical, murderous, and uncaring on the other. The Christian god is one such obvious example.
It is love without respect since none of our gods have ever asked we humans what WE wanted and then used his omnipotence to make or change the world to our specifications. No ... it's always been about what the god wants. Yes, he loves us, but he isn't going to give us any ... ANY ... input about the world in which we are forced to live.
I understand what you are saying. I also understand your point. I am of another view point, so we differ in our perceptions. That certainly doesn't make your view point any less valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
That paradigm works really well for a god that doesn't exist - because you can't expect god to do anything other than what the god wants to do. It doesn't matter how mean and nasty or immoral it is (which includes much of the pain and suffering on this earth such as bone cancer in children). Certainly if WE had a say, one thing that would be asked for is that children are immune to disease and death and predation by other humans.
Yes, I agree. It does work well for a god that doesn't exist. From my vantage point, it also works for the God that does exist.
Yes, we all would like to see children immune from all the ugliness in this world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Unfortunately, when dealing with non-existent gods, we can't really ask for miracles nor can we beg for this god to change our world even a little bit to make it more fair or easy to live in. All that we can expect is for god to do things within the power of humanity or nature to accomplish.
Ergo, we cannot ask for god to sweep away all of the pain and suffering, all of the unfairness and arbitrary decisions concerning who gets to live a life of relative painlessness and who must struggle to endure every tick of the clock. We COULD ask that if a god actually existed - and this god was truly both good AND omnipotent.
But because no such god exists, pain and suffering exists. And humanity is always wrong in determining what we want from our gods. Instead, we have to do this:
Again, I understand what you are saying. And, I understand your reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
What's the point to praying "God's will be done"? For believers, isn't everything "God's will" and does God really need a prayer from anyone to help him carry it out? Or is it an attempt to be magnanimous toward God - to say that, yes, God, you can be as miserable, unfair, unjust, and dispassionate as you want and I'll still be here worshiping you like the good little battered wife that I am!
I can only speak for me, but praying that God's will be done, is my way of saying that I will accept his will, whatever it is. God knows my heart and my heart's desire. I feel I must rise above my heart's desire to accept His will. He, in turn, will give me the strength and peace to face what I must.
I know this sounds silly to you and you liken it to a battered wife. That is ok. Your feelings about the matter are just as valid as mine. I do it because it is what I "feel" is the right thing for me to do with God. In real life, I was a battered wife. I didn't take it. I didn't make excuses for it and I sure didn't stay with him. So, actually, my relationship with God is not like a battered wife at all. Been there/done that/got the divorce decree to prove it. I've never felt that God was beating me up, or threatening me, or making my life miserable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
At what point are we justified in kicking God to the curb and saying, "Exist or not, I want nothing more to do with you."
"I want nothing more to do with you either as a concept or a real entity."
I think that is a judgment call for each person to make. Only you (for you) or me (for me) or anyone (for one's self) can make that decision. Each person knows when the time is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The only reason why our Man-made ideas about God are problematic is because we expect God to live up to being ... well ... a God. Not just some entity that only cares about itself and its own agenda, not some entity that simply does its own will and cares literally nothing for our own lives. No, we want an actual protector, a parent-figure that has our best interests at heart, a guardian that keeps us from danger, a confidant that really does guide us through life. But as history unfolds, I think even some believers are starting to realize that no such entity exists and that the concept of God continues to get smaller and less powerful with each passing year.
That could be true. I have no frame of reference for "a god". I don't know what a god is supposed to be or do or how one is supposed to act. So how do I judge the actions of a god?
Again, I think *our* ideas of what God should or shouldn't be cause a lot of confusion. Humans assess a lot to God. They expect a lot of God. Most of us don't know the mind of God or the intentions of God or why he does what he does or doesn't do the things we think he should. We assume that God should be this or that or do this or that. Yet, we don't know what/why/how he does the things he does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Perhaps our biggest erroneous perception of God is the perception that God even exists.
Ha ... my wife and stepson and I actually went full-on Vegan for about a month last year, just to see how the other 2% lives. It was ... enlightening, but I was ready to gnaw my arm off by the time it was over.
I would never be so foolish as to stand between a Southern gal and her BBQ, though. I may not fear god, but THAT I would fear.
hahaha. We do pause to say grace, but afterward, even God gets out of the way! We southern gals are serious about some BBQ. If you want to see big hair and high-heeled boots up close, just stand between us and the pit. That "women first" thing wasn't born out of courtesy! It was self-preservation!
I can't even imagine being vegan. I wouldn't even have made it a month! I'd have been ready to gnaw *your* arm off, too! I need both of mine for the BBQ.
I believe I have an understanding of God. It is only right for me and it is how my own mind justifies God. My "ideas" of God are totally my own and not another living soul may agree with me. .
So, if none can understand god or what it is or how it acts or what powers it does or doesn't have or what it's plans are, just what is your understanding or idea of it?
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I do agree that theism (church) discourages free thought and unbridled self-awareness - and a lot of other important things.
