Why will neither Christians nor Muslims denounce their wackos? (protestants, pastor, believers)

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Wardendresden

I used to give regularly to the. Salvation Army before I discovered they wouldn't feed or clothe hungry/homeless people until those suffering individuals sat through a sermon. In other words, they had to take an ACTION to get a blessing.

If I'm going to do good, I'm going to be good for nothing--like that Jesus fella. No strings attached.

I see, so you think it is more important to take care of a person's immediate physical needs, helping their life in this brief existence rather than attend to their spiritual needs which is eternal. I happen to think their spiritual life is more important. Jesus did too. Otherwise, He would have just stuck around performing miracles and feeding the poor for many many years instead of that cross business.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by justtitans

If there is no God like some of you believe, then who has dominion over the earth? Aliens? It has to be people, right? Do you not agree?

Your original statement:

It's no different than assuming we as people rule ourselves. Both have nothing factual to back it. They are both dependent on faith. The point is, neither point of view proves anything.

Now it's clear that the only actual control exercised over people is self control, so yes, I will agree that if the gods are not in control, then humans are.

What I don't understand is that at first you said that there is no factual basis behind the notion that people rule themselves, and now you are arguing that it is the only possibility if there is no god.

The dominion of god is asserted without evidence; the dominion of man is self evident, although you were trying to claim it was also asserted with no basis, apparently believing that you can speed or murder without human-induced consequences. Now though you are saying man has dominion by process of elimination if god is out of the picture. Can you make up your mind what argument you wish to make here?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I see, so you think it is more important to take care of a person's immediate physical needs, helping their life in this brief existence rather than attend to their spiritual needs which is eternal. I happen to think their spiritual life is more important. Jesus did too. Otherwise, He would have just stuck around performing miracles and feeding the poor for many many years instead of that cross business.

Practically speaking, a person's spiritual needs are dependent on their "immediate physical needs" being met, because if they starve they won't be around to be proselytized.

And yet nothing engenders resentment like being "helped" in a time of need only to find that by accepting what you thought was the milk of human kindness you are now obligated to give credence to someone else's ideology. An ideology which has just been undermined by it being a condition of the giver's gift. At just the point you might have been developing some natural curiosity to ask about what impulse motivated this great kindness and how the giver came to be as they are.

If you want to shoot yourself in the foot that way, be my guest.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And YOU are making the assertion that the beliefs which thousands of people have held for hundreds of years are nothing more than made up fables. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

Lack of evidence is enough to declare your claims to be unsubstantiated. Entirely so. Further on many claims, such as an after life, we do not just have a lack of evidence. We have evidence that those claims are false. 100% of the knowledge we currently have about human consciousness and the brain suggest that they are inextricably linked. 0% of the evidence we have suggests the possibility of a divide between them. So in fact the evidence against many of the core aspects of your fantasy structure is more than simply a lack.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

That would be the argument from silence fallacy. And I still have 100 proofs.

THAT is the argument from silence fallacy. The way you claim with a smirk to have "100 proofs" but stay silent when asked what even one or more of them actually are. The only one playing the silence card, as a central MO, is you. You. And Just you. The smirk at the end of your declaration of having such proofs is evidence positive that you only claim to have proofs, that you do not actually have, to rile a reaction out of people. But the silence comes solely from your corner. Both in terms of not offering the proofs you claim to have, to your selective ignoring of posts you can not answer or rebut.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I tested the waters and offered up proof of a miracle healing.

No, you did not. You simply cherry picked a single case and declared it to be miraculous. But when taken to the mat on the declaration it turned out that "miracle" simply meant "Unexplained". Hardly compelling evidence of anything really except your cherry picking narrative. At which point you left the mat at a sprint.

[Freak80]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I see, so you think it is more important to take care of a person's immediate physical needs, helping their life in this brief existence rather than attend to their spiritual needs which is eternal. I happen to think their spiritual life is more important. Jesus did too. Otherwise, He would have just stuck around performing miracles and feeding the poor for many many years instead of that cross business.

"Don't worry about the here and now, since it's insignificant compared to eternity."

This is probably one of the most destructive ideas in all of human thought. No need to improve the human condition; there's a pie in the sky when you die. Or even worse, suffering in this life is God's righteous punishment for sin, so reducing suffering is against God's will. It's no wonder that the more religious a nation is, the more dysfunctional and impoverished it is. There's a reason why the rural American south is so poverty stricken.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Wrong.

I can show you more than 100 ways (remember that number...it has come up before, and will againp) that you can be saved.

Heck, I'll even give you a couple for free (I'll show some of mine even before you show me yours).

What must you do to be saved? You can:

Say the right things.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified. -- Matthew 12:37

Do the right things. (Be a do-gooder.)
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. -- John 5:29
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. -- Jeremiah 17:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. -- 2 Corinthians 5:10

Believe the right things.
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. -- Romans 5:1
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. -- Galatians 2:16
For by grace are ye saved through faith. -- Ephesians 2:8

Do and believe the right things.
Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17

Those are not examples of action based religion. Action based is a physical repeatable action. Light this candle, put a dot on your forehead, remove your shoes, etc....

Originally Posted by cupper3

Work your way to heaven.
For you render to each one according to his works. -- Psalm 62:12
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. -- Matthew 16.27
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. -- 2 Corinthians 11:15
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. -- 1 Peter 1:17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? -- James 2:14, 17, 20, 24, 26
I will give unto every one of you according to your works. -- Revelation 2:23
Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work. -- Revelation 22:12

Burn your work.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. -- 1 Corinthians 3:15

Sorry, but the Bible does not teach salvation by works. I can throw up scripture too:


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" - Romans 4:5


"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." - Galations 2:16

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9


Now it is that transforming spirit through the grace of God that makes a born again Christian want to do works and seek righteousness.

Originally Posted by cupper3

This relationship thing is new... Less than 100 years old. It's a concept, something like prosperity gospel teaching. It is not traditional.

Do you even know who the god Mazda is and which religion worships him? I'll give you a hint .... You would recognize many attributes of the teachings and see it reflected in the NT, even in Revelations, or, especially in Revelations.

It's almost like, oh what a shock!, that concepts from other religions in the area were copied.

I'm not familiar with Mazda, but I don't need to study every single religion in the world to figure out that faith in Jesus Christ is the only true way to salvation. The old charge that the Bible merely steals concepts from other religions is nothing more than unproven hyperbole.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by mordant

Practically speaking, a person's spiritual needs are dependent on their "immediate physical needs" being met, because if they starve they won't be around to be proselytized.

And yet nothing engenders resentment like being "helped" in a time of need only to find that by accepting what you thought was the milk of human kindness you are now obligated to give credence to someone else's ideology. An ideology which has just been undermined by it being a condition of the giver's gift. At just the point you might have been developing some natural curiosity to ask about what impulse motivated this great kindness and how the giver came to be as they are.

If you want to shoot yourself in the foot that way, be my guest.

Oopps.... Responding to the wrong post.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by justtitans

So "nature" rules us? Tsunami's don't happen in Ohio, so what dominion does it have there then? How does a tsunami rule you? It could kill, do damage to property, but it in no way causes one to obey.

Nature still rules. You don't understand how universal nature is.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Freak80

"Don't worry about the here and now, since it's insignificant compared to eternity."

This is probably one of the most destructive ideas in all of human thought. No need to improve the human condition; there's a pie in the sky when you die. Or even worse, suffering in this life is God's righteous punishment for sin, so reducing suffering is against God's will. It's no wonder that the more religious a nation is, the more dysfunctional and impoverished it is. There's a reason why the rural American south is so poverty stricken.

Well that's not my position at all. God has called us to love everyone and help them. But that doesn't mean only attend to their physical needs. I don't want to stand before God on judgement day and be asked why I gave them food but did not share the gospel and allowed them to follow the path of spiritual death and destruction.

America has always been a more religious nation than most other countries and even our most impoverished citizens have a high quality of living compared to the poverty in places like South America. You offer no proof to show me how religion causes poverty.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Those are not examples of action based religion. Action based is a physical repeatable action. Light this candle, put a dot on your forehead, remove your shoes, etc....

That's not what most fundie Christians would define works the save as you.

Sorry, but the Bible does not teach salvation by works. I can throw up scripture too:

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" - Romans 4:5


"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." - Galations 2:16

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9


Now it is that transforming spirit through the grace of God that makes a born again Christian want to do works and seek righteousness.

I only showed you six out of over 170. There are a lot more, but, Jeff, it's become time you need to show yours.

I'm not familiar with Mazda, but I don't need to study every single religion in the world to figure out that faith in Jesus Christ is the only true way to salvation. The old charge that the Bible merely steals concepts from other religions is nothing more than unproven hyperbole.

If you don't and won't study other religions, how do you know what you don't know? How do you know what is not copied or borrowed and what is?

Why would you brag about wanting to stay ignorant about other religions? Are you afraid they will convert you?