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Reading the Bile always confuses me. Starting when I was quite young I always wondered why God was ever present, in some sot of manifestation, through both the Old and New testaments but since those times has not made any such appearances for all to see. Oh, many people have claimed that God has spoken to them, various "miracles" have happened in the form of miraculous healings, coma patients pronounced brain dead waking up after decades as produce, myriad stories of miraculous happenings have come back from war with soldiers and such.
But in the Bible God makes his presence all to known. Almost as if He's standing amidst the people for all to see. I always wondered why He doesn't still do that. The whole free will thing? Choose to believe and have Faith or not? In the OT free will was not so free. Such as commanding Joshua to butcher the city of Jericho to the last man ,woman and child. Even animals were not to be spared. There are other examples as well of the murderous journey of the Israeites. Was all this really commanded by God? Or by generals practicing scorched earth tactics?
The inconsistencies of scripture are the biggest reason I don't make it central to my Faith. Sans the Bible and belief in it as literal history there is very little "evidence" that there is a God. Nothing solid and able to be seen at any rate. Certainly not anything that could convince any atheists that they have it all wrong. So why does a guy like me choose to believe? Well, it's just a feeling. Nothing that I can offer up as proof of Gods presence and power. The mental image I have of God doesn't conform to most standards as put forth by organized religion either. Created in His image? Does that mean we actually look like Him or that this is the image He chose, and so it is "His".
Meh, I have a totally unconventional system of belief. It has me labeled as a "lukewarm" Christian by most mainstream devout believers, many who see me with outright contempt. It's my mixing of science and religion that does it. It seems many folks believe it's one or the other, can't have both. But the evidence of life on Earth millions of years before civilizations rose is just undeniable. I'm one of those who feels that needs to be addressed in ones relationship with God. Such ponderings keep my mind quite occupied when I am thinking about my Faith in a higher power. The Earth had been "destroyed" far before the Biblical flood.
Anyway, as far a complete and irrefutable evidence of God, from where I'm sitting there isn't any. The case that atheists present is a strong one. Someone like me certainly can't tell them they are wrong. I'm just a guy who chooses to have Faith and it gives me Hope in feeling there is something more to all this. That we aren't fighting to get through our lives for no more than a cold hole 6x6 when it's over.
This is honest and admirable. I myself, shortly after leaving Christianity, wanted to believe there is a higher being and some kind of wonderful afterlife. I can't say with any certainty it is real so I don't attempt to convince others of this. I can live with what we honestly know.
That's ok. If you have faith that's your prerogative. If you don't produce good reasons for atheists to revise their view, that's ours. We really can agree to differ.
To get back on topic, the question of revising ideas about the cosmos and the earth and whether science was at fault to start of with or whether it corrected non -scientific ideas, came up.
And I'll take prayer over being told by the surgeon that there is nothing they can do, go home and die any day of the week.
I used to visit the palliative care unit of the local hospital with my one dog as part of the pet therapy program. It is a small portion of that hospital as most people who go to the hospital go to get better not to die. When my own father was told that there was nothing more that could be done for him and that he was dying the hardest part for him was that the doctor took away his driver's license. But dad spent a year slowly dying at home and a nurse came in regularly to make sure he was as comfortable as possible. He died in early December 1998 but without modern medicine he would have died on June 6 1944 and the entire life after his one morning of war was spent with some degree of pain. He never believed in a God and when the doctor told him he was dying, other than not being able to drive, he accepted calmly and rationally. He made sure that he saw as much of his family as he could. He passed peacefully in his sleep surrounded by his family.
In my 66 years of life the only time I depended on a doctor to save my life was the very first day. I have been very fortunate not to need it but I know many who have been treated for life threatening illnesses or injuries. Some are religious and some are not but they chose medical care rather than refusing it. If they prayed or not I do not know, most likely those who are religious did and likely religious friends and family did pray for them.
I used to visit the palliative care unit of the local hospital with my one dog as part of the pet therapy program. It is a small portion of that hospital as most people who go to the hospital go to get better not to die. When my own father was told that there was nothing more that could be done for him and that he was dying the hardest part for him was that the doctor took away his driver's license. But dad spent a year slowly dying at home and a nurse came in regularly to make sure he was as comfortable as possible. He died in early December 1998 but without modern medicine he would have died on June 6 1944 and the entire life after his one morning of war was spent with some degree of pain. He never believed in a God and when the doctor told him he was dying, other than not being able to drive, he accepted calmly and rationally. He made sure that he saw as much of his family as he could. He passed peacefully in his sleep surrounded by his family.
In my 66 years of life the only time I depended on a doctor to save my life was the very first day. I have been very fortunate not to need it but I know many who have been treated for life threatening illnesses or injuries. Some are religious and some are not but they chose medical care rather than refusing it. If they prayed or not I do not know, most likely those who are religious did and likely religious friends and family did pray for them.
my pop was 82nd on the that morning. The one thing about refusing help due to religion is that we let evolution do its thing.
I suspect it's for no other reason than you WANT it to be true.
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Anyway, as far a complete and irrefutable evidence of God, from where I'm sitting there isn't any.
Then why believe. What other single thing in your everyday life do you take as true when the lack of verifiable evidence AND reason and logic tells you that it isn't true?
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The case that atheists present is a strong one.
then why ignore it?
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I'm just a guy who chooses to have Faith...
...and say it as if 'faith' was something to be admired and applauded.
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...and it gives me Hope in feeling there is something more to all this.
Ah! There it is. You just can't accept that this is all there is. You need there to be 'more than this'. You can't believe that we are nothing more than another species of animals that will live, die and vanish...just like every other living thing on the planet. It comes from that...'we are special' teaching that religion gives.
Now we agree. So there is no more argument. What more do you want? I'll tell you want you want: to get "God" in there, somehow.
If you want to classify the two into different, one is organic, the other mineral. One is life, (it reproduces) the other isn't. It's simple. Why are you doing this theistic wriggling trying to create a 'Science isn't coherent, therefore God" argument?
Why do you persistently misunderstand and misrepresent where we are coming from? We are fighting irrationality and illogic. We are not fighting Words, but ideas. If we prefer to use words that are generally given particular meanings than have our dog wagged by Goldie's tail, why does that put us in the wrong?
Here is where you are making stuff up that is not true. I only asked what is the best descriptor of the system we are in. I did nothing else. I asked it because I am wondering why we are so irrational despite observations. You want to get "god" (in the form of no god) in there.
I don't need anything but the best descriptor if the system we are in. I don't do god. I only do how it works.
You need to have your belief about god to determine the best descriptions of how the universe works. I do not do science with god as part of the process.
If you are fighting irrationality and illogic then why do you use illogical statements and irrational conclusions?
Describing your answer of "nature" is an excellent example of intellectual dishonesty. It is irrational, illogical, and dishonest to claim that the best descriptor of the biosphere's interactions, taken as a whole, as "natural".
So I say you are more worried about god then I am. I don't care. There is no god of the bible and the biosphere is best described as life. You are wrong when you say "natural" is a better descriptor. You are dishonest when you ignore the best answers due to you worries about god.
I have spoken to many university professors, due to my job, and I suggest you do to if you really care about the integrity of science, logic, and reason.
I suspect it's for no other reason than you WANT it to be true.
Then why believe. What other single thing in your everyday life do you take as true when the lack of verifiable evidence AND reason and logic tells you that it isn't true?
then why ignore it?
...and say it as if 'faith' was something to be admired and applauded.
Ah! There it is. You just can't accept that this is all there is. You need there to be 'more than this'. You can't believe that we are nothing more than another species of animals that will live, die and vanish...just like every other living thing on the planet. It comes from that...'we are special' teaching that religion gives.
what can't you accept? That describing empirical evidence as woo to maintain your belief system is illogical, irrational, and wrong?
Here is where you are making stuff up that is not true. I only asked what is the best descriptor of the system we are in. I did nothing else. I asked it because I am wondering why we are so irrational despite observations. You want to get "god" (in the form of no god) in there.
I don't need anything but the best descriptor if the system we are in. I don't do god. I only do how it works.
You need to have your belief about god to determine the best descriptions of how the universe works. I do not do science with god as part of the process.
If you are fighting irrationality and illogic then why do you use illogical statements and irrational conclusions?
Describing your answer of "nature" is an excellent example of intellectual dishonesty. It is irrational, illogical, and dishonest to claim that the best descriptor of the biosphere's interactions, taken as a whole, as "natural".
So I say you are more worried about god then I am. I don't care. There is no god of the bible and the biosphere is best described as life. You are wrong when you say "natural" is a better descriptor. You are dishonest when you ignore the best answers due to you worries about god.
I have spoken to many university professors, due to my job, and I suggest you do to if you really care about the integrity of science, logic, and reason.
Making stuff up?
"Everything is natural. everything. a rock and a cell. So if I ask you to classify the two systems and you answer 'natural", now what?"
I said one is living the other is not and we ought to agree. I asked why you were even asking the question. I'm making nothing up. You are fiddling it. I agree I made a guess (based on your previous posting of the woo end of science) as to why you were asking. If I'm guessing wrong, you tell me why you are asking questions about simple things as though they were somehow Very Deep.
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Originally Posted by Arach Angle
yeah, I pulled my finger and imitated you. lmao,
You don't know science so you run away from people that do so your adolescent beliefs can self justify.
Here we go, denial, "lmao" instead of anything pertinent, personals. Raffs, let's go do something useful?
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Deliberate or Freudian slip??