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Religion has always been one of the dumbest topics that a person could argue about. You're never going to change a person. And if you do, it may only be temporary and could even cause them to return to their previous belief in a stronger and more effective way. That's how the rules are set up.
So aside from trying to scrape a draw (Ozzy, if you think the conversation is 'dumb' you can stop any time you like (1), you are playing the old 'never going to change a person' card. But the figures say otherwise, Ozzy, mate. People are changing their minds. When our arguments, reasoning and case is just so much better, it takes a particular kind of stubborn intransigence NOT to change.
(1) the last time we did this, folks, the faithful screamed about atheists wanting to ban Christians from R/S.
Bingo! Do you know the sound of one hand clapping? I do!
I'm making this up from memory to make a point:
3 monks were being tested to become the Head Master. The question...What is the gate that keeps you out of the monastery?
First applicant: There is no gate.
2nd: It is our own limitations
3rd: Took off his sandals, placed them on his head and walked away.
He became Head Master.
Brilliant. You'll have to explain to me the Chan symbol of the sandals on the head, though.
Here is one. A chair. Do you inspect every chair you sit in? Of course not. You have faith that it will support you.
The times we have to explain this. 'Faith' that the chair will hold, that your car will start, that the ladder will hold - is not based on 'Faith' but on reasonable expectation, through experience, understanding of how the world works and being aware of the odds and risks.
'Faith' is quite different - it is believing something for which there is no good evidence and even in spite of the evidence.
I was going ask what the point would be, even if you were right, but I can guess. "You have to rely on Faith to get through life. Thus we should have Faith in (Bible) God to help us get through life." Close? Cigar?
But then I'll say. "Fine. I need to have Faith to get me through the day. Let's see...Islam..no thanks....Hinduism...fun but I can't take elephant - headed gods, seriously...no Fiath in Buddhism it would have to be. And I will continue rolling religion out of western society just as before. So where would your point - even if true - get you, after all?
Oh yes, by the way. Not that I expect an answer, but hope springs eternal, you know - where did you get that apologetic from? Do you have a book of 'irrefutable atheist - stumpers' - like 'they denied the wright Brothers' or 'Why are you angry at God'? Or you get them off Apologetics websites or what?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-13-2019 at 06:39 AM..
Here is one. A chair. Do you inspect every chair you sit in? Of course not. You have faith that it will support you.
Great.... now we can add chairs to the list of failed analogies, along with ladders and airplanes and cars and laptops. None of these common, everyday items are examples of things that are relied upon through the same kind of faith that you put in unseen, unevidenced, can't-be-sure-they-even-exist religious phenomenon.
You have TONS of evidence that chair will support you. You can see it and touch it and stand on it and test it. You can even make one yourself, if you're handy. You can repair it if it feels wobbly. It has supported you the last 100 times you sat on it. Moreover, there are literally billions of data points from other chair-users, all of whom experience chairs in very much the same way. It would be more accurate to say that you TRUST the chair to support you, based on objective, reproducible, verifiable evidence.
None of that can be said for religious faith. Still waiting for an example...
Great.... now we can add chairs to the list of failed analogies, along with ladders and airplanes and cars and laptops. None of these common, everyday items are examples of things that are relied upon through the same kind of faith that you put in unseen, unevidenced, can't-be-sure-they-even-exist religious phenomenon.
You have TONS of evidence that chair will support you. You can see it and touch it and stand on it and test it. You can even make one yourself, if you're handy. You can repair it if it feels wobbly. It has supported you the last 100 times you sat on it. Moreover, there are literally billions of data points from other chair-users, all of whom experience chairs in very much the same way. It would be more accurate to say that you TRUST the chair to support you, based on objective, reproducible, verifiable evidence.
None of that can be said for religious faith. Still waiting for an example...
..you TRUST the chair to support you, based on objective, reproducible, verifiable evidence.
None of that can be said for religious faith. Still waiting for an example...
Ok, wait.
I don't have religious faith ...we, who do not care for religions at all, don't follow one religion's Creed...still have faith or belief or
we know things...so we may say we have faith in The Creator...the All That Is...and It's 'System'...a brilliant System of Cause and Effect.
Say, that what we focus on is drawn to us...what we believe at our core will come to us.
(Some say, "manifest", things don't drop outta thin air...they just don't, exactly...)
So, if I think the world is a haphazard place of accidents befalling me, that it is one tough place of hardships, that I have no control...guess what?
If I believe I can have anything I want; that this place is a play ground made for me/us, guess what?
SO...faith in the way things work can be tested time and time again....over and over. (I demonstrate to me friends all the time. They are shocked, cuz they don't get how the world works.)
Start small, baby steps...example...you're on a hike...boy, could you use a safety pin...my belief system is, 'It will come to me, that's a fact' (so smile)...10 ft later you see one in the dirt.
You want an obscure expensive book, (haha, this was before the internet)...you basically announce that to
The Powers That Be, (I don't care if you call it an angel, whatever)....smile, because you just placed your order...you will find it....
and at the Used Book price you wanted...might take a month...keep smilin', have no doubt , cuz it's a'comin'.
Doubt is what stops the entire process. Then the person becomes a life-long skeptic.
That's why you start with baby steps...like building a muscle.
Right now on another forum some girl is doing prayer or affirmations or 'something' for $900 million.
That's simply nuts. She hasn't done the study, research, testing, 'faith' muscle building. At her core belief,
I mean in her sub/unconscious mind, does she really believe this? Come on.
Ask to find a $bill, any denomination, in the next 2 weeks...keep picturing it, feeeeel the fun of finding it...
before you ask or command $900mil to come to you.
It's all about Core Belief.
And that's the fun of being here...you can test all this for yourself...don't believe anyone else...
YOU find out the power you have.
You are right...why did he leave his message with such idiots*? Misquoting, forgetting the entire story, leaving things out, waiting so long? Copying from Mark...!
*Come on, over 3 years with Jesus, privy to esoteric conversations ,(my God, witnessing the Transfiguration!)...and still at the last supper he says, There are so many things I want to tell you, but you can not bear (grasp) them. ( But 3 of them could grasp seeing him turn into pure light talking to the gang on the Other Side.)
And, How long must I suffer you guys...paraphrases off the top....immediately after turning into pure light.
So, I see your point.
Now this is not loving Jesus any less... just: Whassup with all that?
Miss Hepburn, you and others are making the mistake of assuming he left any message at all. How do you know he did? Where is that message? Certainly you're not referring to the gospels????
Normstad has already pointed out correctly that the gospels were invented long after this Jesus fellow bit the dust on a Roman cross likely for sedition. He left not a single word behind in the same way a fellow named Harry Potter (and there were hundreds of Harry Potters in London, you can bet) died and a novelist wrote 7 novels about his ministry here on earth. But none of the words found in the novels were spoken by the original Harry Potter, were they? There's no difference.
Jesus story and message is purely a literary creation of Greek writers drawing on common philosophy and mythology of that time. Hercules was a god who became a man and so was Jesus. Two peas in a pod. One you can find in a book of Greek mythology and the other you can find in a book of Christian mythology called the New Testament.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Here is one. A chair. Do you inspect every chair you sit in? Of course not. You have faith that it will support you.
"Faith" is difficult term to use when you're talking about an inanimate object; that's why I switched my analogy to having faith in the employee. Expectation is a better word, when you're talking about a chair.
It is my habit to sit in a chair without testing it first, because the typical outcome is the chair doesn't break.
So I want to get back to faith in the employee. I have faith that he will do a good job for me, even if it gets really difficult to deliver the goods. He will faithfully deliver them, no matter what it takes.
The chair will just break, if there's a problem. And I won't be stunned and upset about it. Oops, that chair leg broke - better get it fixed. My expectations didn't come true.
Whereas if the employee that I had faith in ended up blowing off the errand and going to the beach instead of returning from Houston, I'd be hurt and angry.
Because I had faith in him, and he betrayed that faith.
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