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But why even be a "Christian"? The only evidence we have that Jesus ever walked the earth, taught people and made promises is contained in the Bible. If the Bible is not to be relied upon, then upon what are you basing your beliefs?
I find this baffling.
I too like many of the things Jesus allegedly taught, such as having compassion for others. But one does not need to have any belief in Jesus in order to be compassionate.
That's a fair question, and I can only answer for myself. I've answered this here before as a matter of fact, but I will again.
First of all, it's not about "beliefs" in the first place. That's a huge difference between the fundamentalists and the liberals. The fundamentalist churches base their religion on "Right Belief"; in other words, the idea that you must believe thus and so. Obviously most people in the church believe in some form of God or what we refer to as God. To me God is a personification of "that which connects us", which in and of itself I can't exactly define but sense its existence and influence on my life.
As I've mentioned before, one of our most active members is an 80-year-old former Episcopal priest who formally renounced his vows because he does not believe in the Trinity, and technically, a priest in the Episcopal Church is supposed to. There are a couple of us in my parish who consider the possibility of reincarnation to be real and not at odds with the teachings of Christ. There are many Episcopalians, myself included, who also follow various Pagan practices and don't find them at odds with Christianity, either.
It doesn't matter. We're not there because we feel like you have to believe a set of rules in order to belong. Think of the words of our deacon. She said, "Even if I found out tomorrow that Jesus never existed, it would not change who I am because truth is truth." Her own husband is a Jewish atheist, but he feels comfortable enough that he shows up for various events.
Rather, we are people who for some reason or another found some truth in what Christ taught, but the reasons we may have landed there could vary. For me, I've said straight up here many times that I looked for a church when I first moved to an area where I knew no one after my daughter graduated from high school and I could bail out of the town where I raised her and where I didn't fit as a working, divorced mom. I worked in the city, fifty miles away, and long hours in addition to the long commute, so there were no opportunities for regular work-related social mixing. I joined a writers group, which I enjoyed, but most people were in relationships or had families and didn't socialize outside the group.
My next obvious choices were the pub up the road or a church. If I started hanging out at the bar, I feared I end up with another version of my ex-husband, and I was done with codependency. I'd belonged to an Episcopal Church briefly years earlier when my ex-Catholic then-husband wanted to get our baby baptized, so I knew they were liberal and accepting of others. I decided to go there to see if I could meet some people.
In addition, as mentioned, I grew up in a dark, sin/hell/death church that damaged me permanently, and there was some part of me that had to go back and take another look and face down that creepy, scary Jesus who had made my childhood so frightening. I found I like him better as a person than as a judgmental god-figure who was just waiting for me to screw up so he could get me.
I used the phrase because that's how people of the church I was immersed in for decades described themselves. The church was even named (Town) Bible Church.
[...TRUNCATED FOR SPACE...]
Edited to add: never mind, as I continued reading your posts I see that you attend an Episcopalian church. Do you know if they are all as open-minded (regarding taking or leaving what the Bible says) as yours is?
Nothing to add, except to say this was a very thoughtful, cogent post. Thank you!
I was a non Bible thumping Christian for like a nanosecond on my way to healing. I would answer that with a "whatever resonates with you." There are many voices contained within the Bible and only you can decide which to listen to.
Dammit, I hate when someone says in three sentences what I just wrote paragraphs to express.
It's also sometimes just the way things work out for someone on the path they follow.
Because my life has taken other turns, I am less involved with the church that kept me going for the past nine years. I don't know that it will be as important to me in the future as it was then, but it was a sustaining part of my life for those nine years.
That's a fair question, and I can only answer for myself. I've answered this here before as a matter of fact, but I will again.
First of all, it's not about "beliefs" in the first place. That's a huge difference between the fundamentalists and the liberals. The fundamentalist churches base their religion on "Right Belief"; in other words, the idea that you must believe thus and so. Obviously most people in the church believe in some form of God or what we refer to as God. To me God is a personification of "that which connects us", which in and of itself I can't exactly define but sense its existence and influence on my life.
As I've mentioned before, one of our most active members is an 80-year-old former Episcopal priest who formally renounced his vows because he does not believe in the Trinity, and technically, a priest in the Episcopal Church is supposed to. There are a couple of us in my parish who consider the possibility of reincarnation to be real and not at odds with the teachings of Christ. There are many Episcopalians, myself included, who also follow various Pagan practices and don't find them at odds with Christianity, either.
It doesn't matter. We're not there because we feel like you have to believe a set of rules in order to belong. Think of the words of our deacon. She said, "Even if I found out tomorrow that Jesus never existed, it would not change who I am because truth is truth." Her own husband is a Jewish atheist, but he feels comfortable enough that he shows up for various events.
Rather, we are people who for some reason or another found some truth in what Christ taught, but the reasons we may have landed there could vary. For me, I've said straight up here many times that I looked for a church when I first moved to an area where I knew no one after my daughter graduated from high school and I could bail out of the town where I raised her and where I didn't fit as a working, divorced mom. I worked in the city, fifty miles away, and long hours in addition to the long commute, so there were no opportunities for regular work-related social mixing. I joined a writers group, which I enjoyed, but most people were in relationships or had families and didn't socialize outside the group.
My next obvious choices were the pub up the road or a church. If I started hanging out at the bar, I feared I end up with another version of my ex-husband, and I was done with codependency. I'd belonged to an Episcopal Church briefly years earlier when my ex-Catholic then-husband wanted to get our baby baptized, so I knew they were liberal and accepting of others. I decided to go there to see if I could meet some people.
In addition, as mentioned, I grew up in a dark, sin/hell/death church that damaged me permanently, and there was some part of me that had to go back and take another look and face down that creepy, scary Jesus who had made my childhood so frightening.
I know that you have spoken openly of your beliefs many times, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so again.
I can understand wanting to socially meet people who are (hopefully) the sort who provide a community of kind-hearted, compassionate people. I can even say that I find truth in some of what Christ (reportedly) taught. I just don't get why one needs to identify as a Christian in order to do those things. (Not saying that you shouldn't be a Christian, only saying that I personally cannot wrap my head around it). After all, the Golden Rule predates Jesus by some 1700 years.
The particular church you attend sounds almost Unitarian Universalist to me; would you agree with this observation? In your opinion, are Episcopalian churches generally like the one you attend?
I used the phrase because that's how people of the church I was immersed in for decades described themselves. The church was even named (Town) Bible Church.
First, strict fundie churches DO still believe much like that about women and gays
(they wouldn't word it quite like that, but they do hold very oppressive beliefs).
LOL. You haven't posted in this forum quite as much as I have. I'm aware. See the 6000-post "homosexuality" thread in the Christianity thread. I am not loved there by our fundamentalist posters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I have no problem with that. Any decent person would value compassion. But the "guy" you're quoting also said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." As I'm sure you know, this verse is one (of many) that "Bible believing Christians" use to teach that eternal life is available only to those who believe Christ died for their sins. It's not enough to just say, "Yeah, that guy taught us that compassion is a good thing."
Yup, and I've been in interesting discussions within the Episcopal church's theological study course about that verse. If you take it literally, it does seem to say that. But if you don't take the Bible literally, what could it mean? (That's an example of how a discussion would go, not a question for which I'm expecting an answer.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I'm sure you know that many (most?) Christians believe the Bible is actually "the Word of God." If I viewed it, as you do, as "sixty-six different writings by men who were trying to figure it all out," it sure wouldn't seem like much of a foundation to build my life (or a religion) upon. It's one thing to toss out archaic teachings about women and gays (as discussed above) but entirely another matter to toss out recurring themes like the "power of prayer" or "Jesus died on the cross for our sins" and "salvation through Christ alone." By the time everything is tossed out except being compassionate (and other basic teachings about being a decent person), it doesn't seem like much of a religion is left. Teachings about being a kind person can found in a simple children's book from the library.
Yes, of course, you don't need a religion at all to be a good person. I did like having discussions and exploring thought on the greater meanings and the possibility of an unseen or spiritual world, though, always have. A person who doesn't would have no interest and be just fine without it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I haven't participated much in this particular forum, so I've missed those discussions. I just may have to "stalk you" by reading all of your old posts in this forum. I'm fascinated to learn more about your beliefs.
Go right ahead. I already have a nasty CD stalker who searches and reads all my posts for nefarious purposes, lol, so it won't be anything new. Just don't try to restate my words to try make them sound as if I said something other than I did as that person does, and we'll be fine.
But don't learn too much about my beliefs. It's all still evolving, and I learn something new every day. It's the seeking and the discovery that I enjoy. I don't have the answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
Back to the OP, her question about praying to end world hunger really caught my eye, because even during the decades that I was a "Bible believing Christian" (sorry MQ, I know you dislike that phrase), the concept of prayer was always a HUGE question mark to me. For decades I secretly thought something was wrong with me that I didn't understand it, or that maybe my prayers weren't answered because I wasn't "good enough" or I wasn't "praying right."
I know what you mean. I posted earlier in this thread (I THINK) about how badly it affected me as a child because I was told that if I prayed for my cousin to get well, she would. She had leukemia, and she died. We were both six. I was convinced she died because I didn't pray correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I have called myself a "humble agnostic" for about 12 years now. I use that phrase because I think it is very humble to admit "I Don't Know." I often miss the fellowship and social life that a church offers, but once I no longer believed in the Bible, I didn't want to participate in a church where I would have to pretend to believe things I didn't.
MQ, you seem to claim the title of Christian, while believing very little of the Bible. This is not a criticism, truly it is not. It's just something I never knew was possible. May I ask what kind of church you attend?
Edited to add: never mind, as I continued reading your posts I see that you attend an Episcopalian church. Do you know if they are all as open-minded (regarding taking or leaving what the Bible says) as yours is?
I don't know. I have belonged to two Episcopal parishes--one back in the 1990s for about five years or so, and then the current one I found nine years ago. In between I had no church affiliation, and in fact tried to be atheist and found I couldn't. In New Jersey, most of the Episcopal parishes will more or less be like mine. I occasionally look in on the Episcopalians on Facebook page, and it seems that the liberal outlook is generally nationwide. It may be different in other parts of the country, but a poster here, Minivan Driver, is an Episcopalian in Alabama, and his way doesn't appear to be too much different from mine.
I should mention that a feature of the Episcopal church is its adherence to ritual and tradition, so while we're liberal in theology, we're pretty traditional with the liturgical colors and robes and candles and incense and all those trimmings. I like ritual, so that appeals to me. On the other hand, the music, in my opinion, is insufferably dull.
But it sounds as if, like me, your driving force to find a church would be that community and fellowship. It might be worth a shot if that's what you are looking for. It worked for me when I needed that.
I know that you have spoken openly of your beliefs many times, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so again.
I can understand wanting to socially meet people who are (hopefully) the sort who provide a community of kind-hearted, compassionate people. I can even say that I find truth in some of what Christ (reportedly) taught. I just don't get why one needs to identify as a Christian in order to do those things. (Not saying that you shouldn't be a Christian, only saying that I personally cannot wrap my head around it). After all, the Golden Rule predates Jesus by some 1700 years.
The particular church you attend sounds almost Unitarian Universalist to me; would you agree with this observation? In your opinion, are Episcopalian churches generally like the one you attend?
Our priest has on the door to his office a list of major world religions and their core beliefs, all of which are some version of The Golden Rule.
Yes, a Unitarian Universalist church would appeal to me. I fell into the Episcopal church by accident, as explained elsewhere (my then-husband, a divorced Catholic, was doing work on an Episcopal rectory during my pregnancy and got talking to the priest, so we went there because he wanted our baby baptized.)
You absolutely do not have to identify as a Christian. I am retired but I work part-time for a Muslim family-owned engineering business. They are people of integrity who seem to follow "the Golden Rule" idea as far as conducting their business and treating their employees (who cover a wide range of races, cultures, and religions, which is pretty common in the NYC engineering industry). The wife, who is a transportation engineer and the president of the company, has said to me that she told her son, who mostly observes the no-alcohol and halal meat strictures only around his parents out of respect, that she doesn't care what faith people are as long as they are good people and try to help, not harm others, and who try to make the world a better place.
And that is MY song and has been since the day I ran out of a disintegrating building with my Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Pagan/Atheist coworkers that was destroyed because some others saw those of us inside that building as a monolithic "them". Whatever faith you embrace, or none, let us find our commonalities and focus on that rather than our differences.
By the way, in addition to the UU church, if I didn't go to an Episcopal church, I'd probably head over to the Friends Meeting House near where I live and hang with the Quakers. They say, "I can't tell you how to experience God. I can only tell you how I experience God." That works for me.
But why even be a "Christian"? The only evidence we have that Jesus ever walked the earth, taught people and made promises is contained in the Bible. If the Bible is not to be relied upon, then upon what are you basing your beliefs?
I find this baffling.
I too like many of the things Jesus allegedly taught, such as having compassion for others. But one does not need to have any belief in Jesus in order to be compassionate.
What is more baffling to me is how anyone would be so inane that they critique and criticize the actions and/or inactions of entities they believe to be nonexistent.
Nonexistent entities don't do or fail to do anything. So, what's with the inquiry? Very strange.
What is more baffling to me is how anyone would be so inane that they critique and criticize the actions and/or inactions of entities they believe to be nonexistent.
Nonexistent entities don't do or fail to do anything. So, what's with the inquiry? Very strange.
This has been explained to you MANY times. What is baffling to me, is that you still act like this is the first time you have ever seen this, or have ever inquired about it. Are you just playing dumb?
Since I was a child, I’ve been praying for the permanent end to all human suffering. So far, it hasn’t worked.
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