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But why even be a "Christian"? The only evidence we have that Jesus ever walked the earth, taught people and made promises is contained in the Bible. If the Bible is not to be relied upon, then upon what are you basing your beliefs?
I find this baffling.
I too like many of the things Jesus allegedly taught, such as having compassion for others. But one does not need to have any belief in Jesus in order to be compassionate.
I was a non Bible thumping Christian for like a nanosecond on my way to healing. I would answer that with a "whatever resonates with you." There are many voices contained within the Bible and only you can decide which to listen to.
I was a non Bible thumping Christian for like a nanosecond on my way to healing. I would answer that with a "whatever resonates with you." There are many voices contained within the Bible and only you can decide which to listen to.
But if it is a fictional book, couldn't I just as well choose some other book? Why choose a book at all? Why not just look within?
But if it is a fictional book, couldn't I just as well choose some other book? Why choose a book at all? Why not just look within?
That was my take away. That voice was everywhere. I thought of the Bible as phase 1 (see Jane learn how not to be an ******* type of instruction) teaching me how to center on that voice, remind me who I am, and then I would know how to follow it without the Bible.
But let me ask you a question: Is that because they don't believe in it, or because they're too lazy to do it?
I think it's because they consider belief (or non) to be a personal issue. I know my Catholic friends and family would shudder at the thought of bothering strangers with Jesus-chat.
But why even be a "Christian"? The only evidence we have that Jesus ever walked the earth, taught people and made promises is contained in the Bible. If the Bible is not to be relied upon, then upon what are you basing your beliefs?
I find this baffling.
I too like many of the things Jesus allegedly taught, such as having compassion for others. But one does not need to have any belief in Jesus in order to be compassionate.
Good points.
Which is why I believe people should be looking for wisdom...wherever it is found...rather than relying on a religion. There are some very wise and good things in the new testament.
But let me ask you a question: Is that because they don't believe in it, or because they're too lazy to do it?
From the Episcopalian side, I can tell you it's because we don't believe in it. As a matter of fact, when I was on the vestry of my church a few years ago, there was a discussion (that comes up every so often) about whether we should be doing more to bring people into our church. There are a bunch of garden apartments across the street from the back of the church, and the discussion pretty much went, "Well, we'd like to let them know they are welcome here, but we can't exactly go knocking on their doors." Everyone reacted with horror at the thought. It just is considered rude and intrusive.
In the end, these conversations always end the same way. All we can do is just keep doing what we're doing. People find their way into our church on their own. I just wandered in one day, as did people who came after me.
By the way, the conversation is more along the lines of letting people know that we are there as a warm and welcoming community, not to swell numbers or increase the money. This little church has been operating on a low budget for 150 years and has always been a small parish. The physical building is small. Some prefer a small community. I know I do.
I was told that they were too lazy, or wicked, to whatever to do it by my sect. I spent hours upon hours on the Christian forum looking through my own eyes and found that was yet another lie. Think it through. What kind of person tells everyone else they must believe as they do?
<snip>
Snort. Episcopalians in the same parish don't all believe the same things. We can't exactly go around saying that to other people.
From the Episcopalian side, I can tell you it's because we don't believe in it. As a matter of fact, when I was on the vestry of my church a few years ago, there was a discussion (that comes up every so often) about whether we should be doing more to bring people into our church. There are a bunch of garden apartments across the street from the back of the church, and the discussion pretty much went, "Well, we'd like to let them know they are welcome here, but we can't exactly go knocking on their doors." Everyone reacted with horror at the thought. It just is considered rude and intrusive.
In the end, these conversations always end the same way. All we can do is just keep doing what we're doing. People find their way into our church on their own. I just wandered in one day, as did people who came after me.
By the way, the conversation is more along the lines of letting people know that we are there as a warm and welcoming community, not to swell numbers or increase the money. This little church has been operating on a low budget for 150 years and has always been a small parish. The physical building is small. Some prefer a small community. I know I do.
And personally, that's what I like to hear.
For a while I was puzzled as to why...in Thailand...I would visit temples (hundreds of them), and even though I was a foreigner/tourist, I was often welcomed in, but not once was there any effort to bring me into the fold.
I'll take a shot at this, even though I'm not a "Bible-believing Christian" and in fact find that phrase silly.
I used the phrase because that's how people of the church I was immersed in for decades described themselves. The church was even named (Town) Bible Church.
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It's one thing to see fundamentalists wax on about believing in the Bible because that is what defines them as fundamentalist in the first place, but it's odd to see non-fundamentalist people, whether of any sort of religious bent or not, do the same. The Bible, as you are aware, is a collection of 66 different writings set down over time and in different places by different people for different reasons. Of course, some parts are going to feel more applicable to life than others.
We (liberal Christians) often get that neener-neener-you-only-like-certain-parts mostly from fundies, but also from non-religious people as in the quotes above. Well, YEAH. DUH. Do I think that the laws of a Middle Eastern culture from 3000 years ago that, for example, dictate the rules for women as property of men or call for the punishment of gay people are of any sort of value today? Why on earth would I? It's 2019. We know better.
First, strict fundie churches DO still believe much like that about women and gays
(they wouldn't word it quite like that, but they do hold very oppressive beliefs).
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On the other hand, do I think there is value in the word of the guy who said put compassion for others ahead of following the written law? Hell yeah. It makes sense, it rings true, and it's the right thing to do. I do like that part. What exactly is the problem with that?
I have no problem with that. Any decent person would value compassion. But the "guy" you're quoting also said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." As I'm sure you know, this verse is one (of many) that "Bible believing Christians" use to teach that eternal life is available only to those who believe Christ died for their sins. It's not enough to just say, "Yeah, that guy taught us that compassion is a good thing."
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The issue with the two quotes above (and I'm not picking on you two, lol, your quotes are just handy) is that they are stuck in the idea that the Bible is supposed to literally be some message from God that rather than sixty-six different writings (and many different TYPES of writings) by men who were trying to figure it all out, some of whom think they did. Even though you are not people who believe in God yourselves, you still think of the Bible in that way.
I'm sure you know that many (most?) Christians believe the Bible is actually "the Word of God." If I viewed it, as you do, as "sixty-six different writings by men who were trying to figure it all out," it sure wouldn't seem like much of a foundation to build my life (or a religion) upon. It's one thing to toss out archaic teachings about women and gays (as discussed above) but entirely another matter to toss out recurring themes like the "power of prayer" or "Jesus died on the cross for our sins" and "salvation through Christ alone." By the time everything is tossed out except being compassionate (and other basic teachings about being a decent person), it doesn't seem like much of a religion is left. Teachings about being a kind person can found in a simple children's book from the library.
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Not all Christians do. Not sure why that still isn't understood after all the discussion about it on this forum.
I haven't participated much in this particular forum, so I've missed those discussions. I just may have to "stalk you" by reading all of your old posts in this forum. I'm fascinated to learn more about your beliefs.
Back to the OP, her question about praying to end world hunger really caught my eye, because even during the decades that I was a "Bible believing Christian" (sorry MQ, I know you dislike that phrase), the concept of prayer was always a HUGE question mark to me. For decades I secretly thought something was wrong with me that I didn't understand it, or that maybe my prayers weren't answered because I wasn't "good enough" or I wasn't "praying right."
I have called myself a "humble agnostic" for about 12 years now. I use that phrase because I think it is very humble to admit "I Don't Know." I often miss the fellowship and social life that a church offers, but once I no longer believed in the Bible, I didn't want to participate in a church where I would have to pretend to believe things I didn't.
MQ, you seem to claim the title of Christian, while believing very little of the Bible. This is not a criticism, truly it is not. It's just something I never knew was possible. May I ask what kind of church you attend?
Edited to add: never mind, as I continued reading your posts I see that you attend an Episcopalian church. Do you know if they are all as open-minded (regarding taking or leaving what the Bible says) as yours is?
So roughly 120000 children have died of starvation since the start of this thread.
So no one is praying or prayer doesn’t work.
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