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TWO: Human beings cannot know all that truly exists. The Universe and all it contains is full of mystery that will forever be marveled and pursued by Man as long as he survives.
This is what skeptics don't seem to be able to understand. So naturally they will always appear both stupid and arrogant to the rest of the world.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that truly exists. The Universe and all it contains is full of mystery that will forever be marveled and pursued by Man as long as he survives.
This is what skeptics don't seem to be able to understand.
I'm not quite sure how you reached this conclusion given that skepticism, by its definition, renounces all certitude.
I almost forgot this effort of mine of many years ago, but after getting Mystic's take and then revisiting this thread this morning, I was suddenly reminded of my own effort along these lines. To have an "off the shelf" version of my ultimate conclusion as of the present. An effort that over time developed into these "Nine Truths." Took me awhile to find this, but after doing a little searching of old emails going back almost 10 years, here it is perhaps also for the peanut people to consider...
NINE TRUTHS
ONE: There are two essential realities for all human beings. One reality is as they perceive it to be -- their personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the Universe -- universal truth.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that truly exists. The Universe and all it contains is full of mystery that will forever be marveled and pursued by Man as long as he survives.
THREE: The first "reality" for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the World, from Christianity to Islam, from Mormonism to Zionism to Hinduism, and all the many faiths and religions in between. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy and so on. Beliefs in spiritual men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith and Jim Jones. The list is long and varied.
FOUR: The second reality, all that truly exists, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). All that we can accept as reality, truth, with the most certainty and most reasonably accept as true for ALL concerned.
FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond reality and theory as determined and defined by science. Such notions are often described as "spirituality" or a belief in an "energy" or an "influence," a "power" or "force," a God or Gods. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotion rather than facts, feelings rather than logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observance or scientific verification.
SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical often guides Man to great scientific discovery. However, when conjecture rather than sound reason and logic leads to faith and the conversion of minds toward the likes of religion rather than the laws and limits of empirical science, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is strongly promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war, still raging since the dark ages; The Crusades, Jews v Muslims, Protestants v Catholics, Shiites v Sunnis...
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit such conjecture is to foster an adherence to reality as currently defined or understood by science, the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the conflict of differing faiths.
If only Man would humbly, patiently and universally agree to allow. This is not to say that Man will not continue to bring violence upon himself for all number of other reasons, but intolerance, violence and war resulting from conflicting faith would be no more (and that's a whole lot of violence and war). Of course, Man's thoughts and beliefs cannot be controlled, but as Man learns to more universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared, and the prospect for peace improved.
EIGHT: Empirical science alternatively guides Man toward truth based on facts that all people around the World can most easily accept as true, clearly distinguishing reality from theory in a manner all should peacefully embrace, thus eliminating the call or need for "faith" in any alternatives that ultimately divide us. Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans.
NINE: Truth is therefore best realized and peace most successfully fostered as more people patiently accept and embrace reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance, very slowly growing from one century to the next, is the maturing of Man, his best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the Universe, proven or yet to be proven.
I pretty much agree with that. While we (that is those who look at what science has found out) don't know everything, the Unknown and Unexplained remain the unknown and unexplained and not murky bathwater where glib-talking peddlers of swaddling bands and invisible baby food that came down from heaven swear on the honour that there is a baby in there.
Faith is not a good reason to believe anything; rationally evaluated evidence (Logic and science) is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
This is what skeptics don't seem to be able to understand. So naturally they will always appear both stupid and arrogant to the rest of the world.
Until we explain to the world that making speculative guesses about the unknown and then insisting that it is undeniably and life-changingly Fact on the basis of Faith is utterly irrational and then- hopefully - they will see through the swindle of Faith.
And Arq axiom is "When you know how a trick is done, you won't be fooled by it ever again".
I pretty much agree with that. While we (that is those who look at what science has found out) don't know everything, the Unknown and Unexplained remain the unknown and unexplained and not murky bathwater where glib-talking peddlers of swaddling bands and invisible baby food that came down from heaven swear on the honour that there is a baby in there.
Faith is not a good reason to believe anything; rationally evaluated evidence (Logic and science) is.
Until we explain to the world that making speculative guesses about the unknown and then insisting that it is undeniably and life-changingly Fact on the basis of Faith is utterly irrational and then- hopefully - they will see through the swindle of Faith.
...
This is a very good post of the position many of us hold.
My powersaw works pretty well on scrambled eggs though, and the power drill does neat donuts. I could use a wooden spoon and an apple-corer of course, but what fun is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
This is a very good post of the position many of us hold.
It beats the reverse Cowgirl, and is easier on the calf-muscles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzpapalotl
I'm not quite sure how you reached this conclusion given that skepticism, by its definition, renounces all certitude.
I'm sure. In short it's based on faith. You begin with the firmly believed "Fact" that 'God' (one that in created in the believers' own image, unless dictated by Church Dogma, and even then..) is real. Therefore atheist refusal to accept the appeal to unknowns (God of the gaps argument) is seen as denial of something they can in no way disprove, because nobody by definition knows anything about the unknown.
Atheism of course does not accept an unvalidated god-claim as true until ...of course it is validated.
Thi is very simple (agnostic -based atheism), but True believers cannot and will not accept this. It is called 'faith-based denial' and is characterised by the plans of a large brass statue to be erected in Better Times square of 'The Eternal Theist': fingers jammed in ears, eyes screwed shut, mouth open, chanting denial, frequently abusive.
Ozzy could stand as a model for it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-23-2019 at 09:48 PM..
I pretty much agree with that. While we (that is those who look at what science has found out) don't know everything, the Unknown and Unexplained remain the unknown and unexplained and not murky bathwater where glib-talking peddlers of swaddling bands and invisible baby food that came down from heaven swear on the honour that there is a baby in there.
Faith is not a good reason to believe anything; rationally evaluated evidence (Logic and science) is.
Until we explain to the world that making speculative guesses about the unknown and then insisting that it is undeniably and life-changingly Fact on the basis of Faith is utterly irrational and then- hopefully - they will see through the swindle of Faith.
And Arq axiom is "When you know how a trick is done, you won't be fooled by it ever again".
Just because you do not comprehend the science from which very plausible hypotheses are extrapolated is no reason to pretend that the plausible hypotheses are just as worthless as mere guesses or wishful thinking.
Just because you do not comprehend the science from which very plausible hypotheses are extrapolated is no reason to pretend that the plausible hypotheses are just as worthless as mere guesses or wishful thinking.
Which reminds me...have you taken your ideas to any science sites, as I recommended. If so, which ones?
Just because you do not comprehend the science from which very plausible hypotheses are extrapolated is no reason to pretend that the plausible hypotheses are just as worthless as mere guesses or wishful thinking.
I have never pretended any such thing. That Abiogenesis is a 'Plausible Hypothesis' and so were relativity, Black holes and the Higgs-Boson until validated by experiment should show that it is Faith-based prejudice (the kind that makes you peddle your beliefs as fact and then try to whine that as 'opinions' they don't need any substantiation - revealing that deep down you know you have not a Shred of valid evidence) that is speaking and not just 'presenting a plausible hypothesis' (which incidentally is no more than i claim for my Pet theory of Gospel Fabrication and the Failed Messiah [theme song, faith-claims keep fallin' on my head']).
So you are doing it wrong, even if your science and logic were sound, neither of which appears to be the case.
I'm sure. In short it's based on faith. You begin with the firmly believed "Fact" that 'God' (one that in created in the believers' own image, unless dictated by Church Dogma, and even then..) is real. Therefore atheist refusal to accept the appeal to unknowns (God of the gaps argument) is seen as denial of something they can in no way disprove, because nobody by definition knows anything about the unknown.
Atheism of course does not accept an unvalidated god-claim as true until ...of course it is validated.
Thi is very simple (agnostic -based atheism), but True believers cannot and will not accept this. It is called 'faith-based denial' and is characterised by the plans of a large brass statue to be erected in Better Times square of 'The Eternal Theist': fingers jammed in ears, eyes screwed shut, mouth open, chanting denial, frequently abusive.
Ozzy could stand as a model for it.
I don't equate atheism with skepticism simply because not all atheists are skeptics, even with regard to that one claim. If Ozzy used the word 'atheist' in his statement, I'd have no comment beyond the subject of its meaningless generalisation.
I pretty much agree with that. While we (that is those who look at what science has found out) don't know everything, the Unknown and Unexplained remain the unknown and unexplained and not murky bathwater where glib-talking peddlers of swaddling bands and invisible baby food that came down from heaven swear on the honour that there is a baby in there.
Faith is not a good reason to believe anything; rationally evaluated evidence (Logic and science) is.
Until we explain to the world that making speculative guesses about the unknown and then insisting that it is undeniably and life-changingly Fact on the basis of Faith is utterly irrational and then- hopefully - they will see through the swindle of Faith.
And Arq axiom is "When you know how a trick is done, you won't be fooled by it ever again".
Trans, you trying to promote a terrible belief system which has done horrible things to the world. You know this.
You also know the good that Christianity has brought. Yet you deny all of it.
You are basically a joke. A giant baby.
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it is validated. 
