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...something as simple as whether or not a man in the sky exists
^ And that's the whole point.
Because I'm not sure that it is ever simple. In fact, I'm sure it's not. Just read any thread on this forum, just read this thread, and one realizes it is not simple. I'm not sure it was ever meant to be; as the real challenge exists in making it so for ourselves. Meaning that we know who we are, what we believe, and are comfortable in our own selves.
Blue commented in an earlier post that you are one of the most intelligent people on this forum, Troop. I absolutely agree with her. You have something that in my opinion is a gift. I've met alot of "intelligent" people. Alot. There's a reason, however, that your intellectual gifts stand out in my mind. I remember the day that I read one of your posts in which you stated that you had dropped out of high school. I did a double take. Thought I had somehow misread. But you are not just the sum total of an exceptionally intelligent mind. You possess a kind heart, and a gentle spirit.
But the issue you bring up here is not an intellectual one. I can't help but think that if you attempt to address it as such, you might not necessarily obtain the end result you desire with your coworker. --Because somehow I get the feeling that for believers, it isn't an intellectual issue. It's a spiritual one. And it's a personal one. A personal, spiritual issue. If I am even remotely close in my understanding correctly, for those of faith, it defines who they are. It "is" them.
And that is what you have to keep in mind.
My immediate supervisor identified herself as a Christian nearly from the start when I began working at my job. She has no clue what my religious beliefs or lack thereof are. I understand what you are saying about having a good working relationship with those you team up with. You're repairing planes. That's a huge responsibility. You need to know that you can work effectively together. It's a personal and professional safety issue. --So is mine. I need to be able to get along with my Christian supervisor, as she needs to assist me in the area of what we "fix." Or attempt to. I am lucky inasmuch as I love and respect her to pieces, and although she has never asked me outright what I believe, I honestly wouldn't mind if she did. I would be open to that. (I am also not sure how much of that has to do with many different variables...) I am also not living in Mississippi. I don't have to go about my day feeling like I am "the atheist" amid a company of "believers." But like I posted earlier, you have grown up in an area that is culturally dominated by Christians. You, far better than I, would know what the mindset within your immediate environment is.
I am NOT saying that it is easy. Or simple. In fact, I know it's not. But you also have to think about how you think about that coworker. Or any believer. For your coworker, I have the sense that his belief in God, in Jesus Christ is not so simple as "some man" who "exists in the sky." --If anything, I would wager to bet that it's far from it! For better or worse, it's his faith, his belief. Granted, it is not yours. --But I also know this: when one's beliefs are reduced to the level of Santa or the tooth fairy, things start to go downhill...I am NOT saying that you engaged with your coworker in such a way as to say to him that his belief was tantamount to such. I know you, and I know you would not have done that. But you also need to be aware of how we carry our thoughts, our attitudes, and our feelings with us into every room we enter. Just as you carry your gifted mind, and gentle heart.
You know that June feels strongly that people deserve to have their boundaries upheld, and respected. You deserve that. Your coworker deserves that. You both need and deserve that. Everyone on these forums needs and deserves that. We can only try as best we can. Personally, I truly feel that you have it within your capacity, your ability, to continue to work along side your Christian coworkers not just successfully, but in a way in which they also respect you. Because you can respect them. Because you are smart, you are engaging, you are a hard worker, and even more than all that, you have a heart. I remember your post many months back in which you said that you had offered to work on Christmas Day for a coworker, as he was a Christian, he had children.
That tells me something. It tells me that on some level, you do understand. --And that you are caring.
If you engage on a level that is authentic, if you have it in you to be yourself, with appropriate and respectful boundaries, (bringing with that, your heart) then I suspect you will not only survive, but thrive. Take the coworker out for a beer. Buy a bottle of that Trappist Monk brewed beer. (How ironic is that?) Have a few and let him know that you enjoy working together. That despite your vast differences, that on some level there are areas that can exist where you might find commonalities. You have a sense of humor that is second to none. I find it hard to believe that others wouldn't find you "likeable." I like you. But do you imagine that they can like you? Respect you? Work along side you, atheist or otherwise? Because call me niave or stupid, but I have the feeling you somehow can.
At least that is my hope for you.
I need to acknowledge that I live in "liberal" Massachusetts. I have never been to Mississippi, or Tennessee. I have even been known to say to many of you that those areas, those predominantly Christian based states "wouldn't be ready for the likes of June!" as she is so "liberal" in her mindset. That no doubt someone would shoot me. That I'd feel like a fish out of water. And yet, maybe not...I tend to come down on the side of people's strengths. Others, as well as my own. And for all I know, maybe I'm just too darn idealistic. (But I don't think so.)
June listens to people for a living. I am paid to understand them, as best I can. If there is one thing I know professionally, but even more so, personally, it is this: that we all need and seem to do best with empathicboundaries. Hopefully I succeed more often than I fail.
I hope that I've succeeded more than I've failed here with you, in this post, Troop. I am not sure that I have, and if not, I apologize. Because you are worthy of being respected and understood. By me and others here, by your real life friends, your family, your coworkers, and most of all, yourself.
Take gentle care.
Post script: And thus, June has successfully managed to post what in length, exceeds even the length of your posts, Troop! --For all those who have read this far and whose eyesight has been severely compromised as a result, June humbly apologizes.
Well, I want to lay down an important distinction.
Yes, I'm a Christian. We attend twice a week. My faith does not come from just Scripture, or being raised that way, but an intense and personal experience that I find difficult to articulate into words. I have studied theology that not only affirmed my belief, but has challenged it as well.
That being said, I am very uncomfortable with how some fellow Christians choose to thrust themselves into the lives of others. Yes, we are supposed to spread the teachings of Christ, but we're also supposed to do so effectively through our quiet faith and our way of living--not by braying it out on the street corners.
The Sermon on the Mount, the ethical core of the faith tells us explicitly not to go out and preach in the streets or even publicly pray in the house of worship, but keep our prayers part of our inner life. And yet Christianity spread in the face of a hostile world, simply because it was the quiet discussion of belief between interested parties. In fact, one could call Christianity the greatest clandestine movement in world history.
But people like the colleague you mention want to ram it down your throat. It's just not The Way in my opinion. After all, tell many a Fundamentalist that you're an Episcopalian or a Catholic, and they can't even handle that.
So I think you should draw a distinction and not depict us all with the same brush. I would like nothing better to share my faith, but I also know that you're not ready to hear it. Maybe one day you will.
To all you Christians who behave like this, good for you. While I don't agree with some of your statements and depiction of history is not exactly correct, this is how you deal with your faith at work. I had been trying to draw the distinction between the majority of Christians on this thread who recognize the social and legal distinctions and those who think the law and social conventions don't apply to them. You are absolutely right, nobody respects a bully. Reps to you.
I'm not trying to encompass ALL theists in this light. But, who am I going to ask? Atheists? I mean, what sense does that make? I'm going to ask an Atheist why a Christian felt the need to bring it up? There must be something. Some sort of psychological advantage, some sort of spiritual reason to at least one of them, SOMETHING, that seems to make it OK and that's what I really don't understand.
But, those aren't my only questions and that's why I posted this to the religion forum instead of the Christianity forum.
i think you did the right thing by posting this here. i also think that it is irresponsible to place the blame on you for this situation. for one, it is a social situation in a work environment which automatically (for most rational people) brings up hesitancies that have to do with keeping the peace, not causing problems, not acting traitorously or rashly, and so many others that i am probably completely unaware of. i think it is only natural to feel a little reserverd, or even out of your element when dealing with this kind of person one on one. i am not sure that i would have done anything different, and i am a christian.
but again, the bolded section above applies only to this guy and other blunderingly ignorant people like him. there are those of us theists that are very aware of the need to be respectful and collaborative instead of judgemental, loud, rude, and condemning everything in sight that does not bend to our belief system.
Because I'm not sure that it is ever simple. In fact, I'm sure it's not. Just read any thread on this forum, just read this thread, and one realizes it is not simple. I'm not sure it was ever meant to be; as the real challenge exists in making it so for ourselves. Meaning that we know who we are, what we believe, and are comfortable in our own selves.
Blue commented in an earlier post that you are one of the most intelligent people on this forum, Troop. I absolutely agree with her. You have something that in my opinion is a gift. I've met alot of "intelligent" people. Alot. There's a reason, however, that your intellectual gifts stand out in my mind. I remember the day that I read one of your posts in which you stated that you had dropped out of high school. I did a double take. Thought I had somehow misread. But you are not just the sum total of an exceptionally intelligent mind. You possess a kind heart, and a gentle spirit.
But the issue you bring up here is not an intellectual one. I can't help but think that if you attempt to address it as such, you might not necessarily obtain the end result you desire with your coworker. --Because somehow I get the feeling that for believers, it isn't an intellectual issue. It's a spiritual one. And it's a personal one. A personal, spiritual issue. If I am even remotely close in my understanding correctly, for those of faith, it defines who they are. It "is" them.
And that is what you have to keep in mind.
My immediate supervisor identified herself as a Christian nearly from the start when I began working at my job. She has no clue what my religious beliefs or lack thereof are. I understand what you are saying about having a good working relationship with those you team up with. You're repairing planes. That's a huge responsibility. You need to know that you can work effectively together. It's a personal and professional safety issue. --So is mine. I need to be able to get along with my Christian supervisor, as she needs to assist me in the area of what we "fix." Or attempt to. I am lucky inasmuch as I love and respect her to pieces, and although she has never asked me outright what I believe, I honestly wouldn't mind if she did. I would be open to that. (I am also not sure how much of that has to do with many different variables...) I am also not living in Mississippi. I don't have to go about my day feeling like I am "the atheist" amid a company of "believers." But like I posted earlier, you have grown up in an area that is culturally dominated by Christians. You, far better than I, would know what the mindset within your immediate environment is.
I am NOT saying that it is easy. Or simple. In fact, I know it's not. But you also have to think about how you think about that coworker. Or any believer. For your coworker, I have the sense that his belief in God, in Jesus Christ is not so simple as "some man" who "exists in the sky." --If anything, I would wager to bet that it's far from it! For better or worse, it's his faith, his belief. Granted, it is not yours. --But I also know this: when one's beliefs are reduced to the level of Santa or the tooth fairy, things start to go downhill...I am NOT saying that you engaged with your coworker in such a way as to say to him that his belief was tantamount to such. I know you, and I know you would not have done that. But you also need to be aware of how we carry our thoughts, our attitudes, and our feelings with us into every room we enter. Just as you carry your gifted mind, and gentle heart.
You know that June feels strongly that people deserve to have their boundaries upheld, and respected. You deserve that. Your coworker deserves that. You both need and deserve that. Everyone on these forums needs and deserves that. We can only try as best we can. Personally, I truly feel that you have it within your capacity, your ability, to continue to work along side your Christian coworkers not just successfully, but in a way in which they also respect you. Because you can respect them. Because you are smart, you are engaging, you are a hard worker, and even more than all that, you have a heart. I remember your post many months back in which you said that you had offered to work on Christmas Day for a coworker, as he was a Christian, he had children.
That tells me something. It tells me that on some level, you do understand. --And that you are caring.
If you engage on a level that is authentic, if you have it in you to be yourself, with appropriate and respectful boundaries, (bringing with that, your heart) then I suspect you will not only survive, but thrive. Take the coworker out for a beer. Buy a bottle of that Trappist Monk brewed beer. (How ironic is that?) Have a few and let him know that you enjoy working together. That despite your vast differences, that on some level there are areas that can exist where you might find commonalities. You have a sense of humor that is second to none. I find it hard to believe that others wouldn't find you "likeable." I like you. But do you imagine that they can like you? Respect you? Work along side you, atheist or otherwise? Because call me niave or stupid, but I have the feeling you somehow can.
At least that is my hope for you.
I need to acknowledge that I live in "liberal" Massachusetts. I have never been to Mississippi, or Tennessee. I have even been known to say to many of you that those areas, those predominantly Christian based states "wouldn't be ready for the likes of June!" as she is so "liberal" in her mindset. That no doubt someone would shoot me. That I'd feel like a fish out of water. And yet, maybe not...I tend to come down on the side of people's strengths. Others, as well as my own. And for all I know, maybe I'm just too darn idealistic. (But I don't think so.)
June listens to people for a living. I am paid to understand them, as best I can. If there is one thing I know professionally, but even more so, personally, it is this: that we all need and seem to do best with empathicboundaries. Hopefully I succeed more often than I fail.
I hope that I've succeeded more than I've failed here with you, in this post, Troop. I am not sure that I have, and if not, I apologize. Because you are worthy of being respected and understood. By me and others here, by your real life friends, your family, your coworkers, and most of all, yourself.
Take gentle care.
Post script: And thus, June has successfully managed to post what in length, exceeds even the length of your posts, Troop! --For all those who have read this far and whose eyesight has been severely compromised as a result, June humbly apologizes.
WOW! I read the whole thing and freedom is blessed for it.
DANG! somehow i think you didn't learn those communication skills in college.....
June got game....It's like an all you can eat buffet...
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,388,427 times
Reputation: 3540
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
If you were indeed so concerned about how personal the issue was you could have just as easily sent me a DM. I would have responded to it probably not much differently. But, then again, perhaps it was a result of the "forum becoming war??" . . .
On the other hand, I sort of feel like this thread was seen as an opportunity by some to finally let the big bad outspoken forum Atheist have it. Let's face it; you've rarely ever commented on other posts of mine in which I may have made cynical remarks about God. So, all of a sudden, here comes someone who decides to give me "tough love" after all of this time. Thanks. I appreciate the tough love but I think I handled the situation rather well without having to deal with the sardonic attitude.
Troop, I certainly thought you knew me well enough to know that I don't go trolling for atheists. I've been staying out of the forum wars because I don't appreciate the blatant hostility and because I choose not to engage in useless arguments with people who aren't interested in listening (really listening) to what I have to say. I only poke my head in over here every now and then, and I usually leave feeling saddened that forum participants can't have the productive conversations we once had. I'm sorry I missed the thread you mentioned; I'm sure I would have had something to say.
Just as a reminder, I initially responded to your comment: "However, had the subject never been brought up I wouldn't even be making any of these posts nor would I be worried about it." I was truly astounded by that statement because I have seen you make posts hypothesizing about when "the [atheist] cat got out of the bag." I told you once before, and I was reiterating it, that I think you needlessly anticipate trouble. I go by the adage that states a person shouldn't worry about the troubles (real or perceived) that may come tomorrow because there are enough troubles to worry about today. The troubles we anticipate and build up in our imaginations often never materialize, so I don't believe in stressing over them. However, if an imagined situation actually does arise, we usually make it worse by having previously worked ourselves into a state. I thought that was where you were headed, especially when I detected hostility against this co-worker in your posts subsequent to the OP.
I apologize if it appears I've only tucked the uncomplimentary bits and pieces of your posts into my mind and neglected the positive aspects. I certainly didn't mean to do that, but I can see where you got that impression. I thought I had indicated in past interactions (they may have been awhile ago) that I respect your opinion and appreciate the way you usually present yourself. Lots of the things you say make me smile, others make me shake my head, but overall I get the impression that you would be someone I could get along with in real life and with whom I could develop a friendship. I know you said at least once before that you are very shy in person. I'd forgotten that, and I'm sorry. Perhaps I would have worded my post differently because that attribute would certainly pertain to how you interact with your co-worker. You come across in most of your posts as someone who's very self-assured, so I tend to assume you carry that confidence with you in your real life interactions. Again, I'm sorry for the assumptions I made. I did, however, remember many of the things you've said you have experienced at the hands of other Christians, and I know I have sympathized with you and indicated that certain actions are wrong no matter who they're coming from.
Tough love, as I understand it, is applied to a person's actions, not his thoughts. I wouldn't employ tough love every time you make a sarcastic comment because that's an inappropriate use of the concept. Neither will I necessarily make a rejoinder each time I hear such comments because doing so just inflames the forum wars. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine. I'll respond to your statements only when I feel it is necessary or appropriate, and I probably won't even respond if someone else has already said what I would have. Based on what I read in this thread, I honestly thought your actions needed to be called into question as well as your co-worker's. Yes, I could have taken my comments to DM, but I thought that would make it seem like even more of a personal attack. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would have preferred these comments made public because of the nature of the thread. I was willing to be open with my thoughts and withstand the criticism of others. Perhaps I was wrong to go public; I certainly get that feeling from your reaction. Again, I'm sorry for any hurt I inflicted.
~~~~~
To the question at hand regarding your OP:
Several others made the same types of suggestions I would have made. I tend to treat individuals and incidents on a case by case basis, so my reactions wouldn't be the same for every sticky situation. My first inclination is always to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and not assume offense is intended until it is blatantly clear that's not the case. So, I appreciate it when others treat me the same way. Likewise, I try to give wide latitude to freedom of expression and appreciate it when the same is reciprocated. I also try extremely hard not to make assumptions about the other person's motives or about his thought process. While I am generally pretty good at reading people, I've been known to be wrong, and wrong thinking will only inflame a potentially tense situation. I'd rather let a person hang himself by his own words than me to hang him erroneously. When those simple avenues of diplomacy fail, I employ a variety of responses.
I'm a very forthright individual and usually have no hesitation in clearly stating where I stand on any issue. That doesn't mean I would stand on the tabletop and loudly proclaim, "I am Christian; hear me roar!" I wouldn't suggest you do that, either (only substituting "atheist" for "Christian"), no matter how comical the mental picture is. I'd probably approach a work situation much like you have, quietly going about my business and letting people get to know me. However, there are exceptions to that rule, and I have sometimes told people up front who I am and what I stand for. That way, there's no miscommunication, and the other person doesn't form as many wrong impressions. With this particular co-worker, I probably would have done that before now. (But that's me, and you're not me.)
I also have no problem letting others know my personal boundaries. A simple "I'd rather not discuss that topic" usually suffices. Sometime, I put caveats on that kind of statement and say that it's not appropriate for the time and place, but I'd be willing to discuss the issue in a more appropriate setting or at a later time.
When I find it necessary to be more forceful, I try to lighten the mood by altering my tone and sometimes employing a teasing tone that nevertheless leaves the individual in no doubt that he has invaded my boundaries. Other times I find it necessary to be rather blunt, but I hope my words/action/tone stop before they cross the rudeness threshold. Sometimes, I say something to the effect of, "Do you realize how you're coming across?"
Quite frankly, if I was present when your co-worker brought up the gay marriage issue, I would have been offended by his tone. I would have said something along the lines of, "Hey, Bob. Have you heard of Fred Phelps or Westborough Baptist Church? Do you realize than when you use derogatory terms, you sound an awful lot like that. Was that your intention?"
Troop, to a large extent, your approach to your co-workers has been right on. Let them get to know you and realize what a nice guy and a good worker you are, then at some appropriate time, you can let them know about your atheism. Chances are they will barely blink an eyelash once the surprise has worn off. Your actions will have dispelled most of the prejudice, at least any that would be aimed at you. I'll illustrate that with an incident out of my past:
At one point in time, I had an acquaintance who knew me on a superficial level much like many work relationships. Our respective religious beliefs had apparently never been discussed before because this person went into a tirade about the evils and moronic acts of right wing, evangelical Christian nut jobs. (I don't remember the exact words.) I listened patiently throughout this whole tirade. (I even managed not to roll my eyes!) Eventually the guy came up for air, and I looked him in the eye and calmly replied, "You know, I'm one of those right wing, evangelical Christian nut jobs you've been talking about." This guy's eyes nearly popped out of his head and he sputtered, "But...but...but, you're not like that at all!" "Exactly," I replied, "and I sincerely suspect--based on the people I know--that the majority of the Christians you've just been crucifying aren't like that either."
I've got lots of different stories I could share, but the point is that if you've already built a rapport with someone, rarely is aggressive confrontation necessary. Sometimes, it becomes necessary to set boundaries, and the sooner those boundaries are set the better off you are. That way, there's no surprise later on when someone has thought one thing about you all along only to be surprised you're something else. It also avoids the stress of having anger or other emotions building up inside because you've kept quiet far too long.
If I am even remotely close in my understanding correctly, for those of faith, it defines who they are. It "is" them.
And that is what you have to keep in mind.
The problem is really how they.. define others. Coming from a small southern town.. i've seen it more often than not be an "us vs them" thing and the "thems" don't even know a line has been drawn.
Like I said before.. I bet about 80% of the people Troop works with now.. know he is an atheist. So Troop might cease to be that hard working, kind, moralistic guy with a heart.. and instead be.. "that atheist".
Just telling you what I've seen.. and I bet.. what Troop has seen growing up.
Just my opinion though.. I don't want anyone thinking I'm taking over the conversation.
The problem is really how they.. define others. Coming from a small southern town.. i've seen it more often than not be an "us vs them" thing and the "thems" don't even know a line has been drawn.
Like I said before.. I bet about 80% of the people Troop works with now.. know he is an atheist. So Troop might cease to be that hard working, kind, moralistic guy with a heart.. and instead be.. "that atheist".
Just telling you what I've seen.. and I bet.. what Troop has seen growing up.
Just my opinion though.. I don't want anyone thinking I'm taking over the conversation.
Hey, I'm just some northern liberal shrink who has never spent any real time in the south. What do I know? Y'all have stuff down there that June's never encountered, or for that matter, even heard of before! (Like that coon thing with ILNC, and don't even get me going on "gravy biscuits!")
June does better in colder climates. It helps preserve her "youthful appearance."
Troop, I certainly thought you knew me well enough to know that I don't go trolling for atheists. I've been staying out of the forum wars because I don't appreciate the blatant hostility and because I choose not to engage in useless arguments with people who aren't interested in listening (really listening) to what I have to say. I only poke my head in over here every now and then, and I usually leave feeling saddened that forum participants can't have the productive conversations we once had. I'm sorry I missed the thread you mentioned; I'm sure I would have had something to say.
Just as a reminder, I initially responded to your comment: "However, had the subject never been brought up I wouldn't even be making any of these posts nor would I be worried about it." I was truly astounded by that statement because I have seen you make posts hypothesizing about when "the [atheist] cat got out of the bag." I told you once before, and I was reiterating it, that I think you needlessly anticipate trouble. I go by the adage that states a person shouldn't worry about the troubles (real or perceived) that may come tomorrow because there are enough troubles to worry about today. The troubles we anticipate and build up in our imaginations often never materialize, so I don't believe in stressing over them. However, if an imagined situation actually does arise, we usually make it worse by having previously worked ourselves into a state. I thought that was where you were headed, especially when I detected hostility against this co-worker in your posts subsequent to the OP.
Blueberry,
I didn't think I gave the impression at all that I was trying to push hostility on this co-worker. If I really wanted to be hostile with him I would have done so upon the initial encounter. I wasn't looking for an excuse or a way to become hostile with him. If anything, anything at all, I was looking for the advice of Christians on how they would have liked me to proceed with the matter, or at least, how they would prefer to be approached had they been in this guy's shoes probably taken slightly aback that I was indeed not a Christian and for that matter an Atheist.
While I fully understand your point about perceived occurences happening before they actually happen, I do also try to look ahead and see around the corner at what's next. Does this probably add a bit of extra stress in my life trying to predict the actions of what will happen in the future and what the outcome will be in case it does occur? I'm sure it does. However, in doing so for as long as I can remember, I have done quite well for myself as a result if even at the expense of my own personal satisfaction at times. Examining every possibility, thinking about every possible corridor that life could turn into has indeed helped me be prepared for situations that do arise. I do understand the need to worry about what is happening today instead of tomorrow, and perhaps it's just my own personality, but I feel ill-prepared for life if I have not thought things through. Call it a product of my intense curiosity but I am not the type to just "settle" for what is now when there's so much ahead.
Thinking about it from this perspective, I wonder what would have happened if I had never found this forum and never gotten to really "know" people of different faiths? How would I have approached the matter at hand? Would I have thought it through entirely or would I have spouted off at the mouth with a bit of hostility? Would I have approached it from the more Hitchens-esque angle or would I have approached it from the angle that I did end up approaching it from? In all, as part of me, I think that I would have been intimidated and, quite honestly, I don't think I would have been honest with him. More than likely, I would have probably just said that both my wife and I were Christians just to avoid any sort of argument or disagreement. However, examining my non-faith on this forum has led me to some different conclusions. One, I am indeed confident in what I know and what my ideas and thoughts are to the point that I feel I can handle it without being overly aggressive. Two, I have discovered through several friends of mine on here that people's opinions of you don't always matter. However, with that being said, with this particular case being at work, I felt like there was an intricately thin line and delicate fashion in which the matter should be approached. Because I had the availability of a little extra time I posted what I posted to try and perceive what the best options were. Again, when you think about it, I was merely trying to plot and plan what was inevitably going to happen the next time we worked together. Knowing what I wanted to say prior to that second event happening instilled me with the confidence that I could handle the situation with amicability and a lot less hostility and that was the product of me posting on here.
Was part of this all a defense mechanism as the result of past events in my life? Probably more so than less. The only thing I knew as far as this guy was concerned with faith were a few things:
1. He called gays "****" so what should I make of things if he found out I were an Atheist?
2. I do know that he is rather fundamentalist in his beliefs but as I have discovered on here that can mean one of two things (usually). Either I was in for night after night of biblical prophecy and preaching or he was going to be professional and respect what my opinions are. Based on the way I felt about #1 along with past experiences in life as well as this forum, you could say I was a little bit cautious as to how I wanted to approach the matter and I wanted to do it with the utmost genuine sincerity so as to be able to keep together a positive work environment and hopefully friendship.
What I didn't appreciate was that within all of that, I felt singled out as this ceremonious destroyer of all things and people Christian. While I can understand how some of those things may have been perceived through prior posts of mine, I'd also like to think that I am not the iconic cluster of vitriolic hate and spew that I felt I was being painted as by you. I am not a monster. I am not a cretin and I am certainly not beyond approach. I have listened, I have read, and I have examined all of the arguments for both Christianity and theism in general. I have argued, I have joked, and I have seriously addressed matters on this forum as well as a few in the Christianity forum.
Just because I make the comparison between any particular God and the Christian God does not mean that I think it's not important to you or anyone else. However, there is an indeterminable amount of ration and logic behind this comparison if you really think about it. People scoff at the mere mention of me comparing the Christian God to something like Zeus. However, people so often forget that Zeus did, at some point in history, probably play just as much an integral part in people's lives as the Christian God does in today's world. Just because we cannot see the product of those people's faith any longer it doesn't mean it wasn't real to them all the same. The same can be said for Allah and other more "modern" day Gods. It's not a comparison meant to incite riot or flame and troll, but merely an observation that people throughout all of history have sought the explanation of things with some sort of deity.
As far as the tough love portion goes... I can understand the reasoning now why you didn't DM me. Thinking about it from that perspective you are probably right. It would have made it seem more personal. However, in the end, I truly thought that what I was asking for was abundantly clear. I tried my best to put forth an image of this guy that was well respected by me but also with an added element to the process and that I wasn't out to set him on fire. If the matter had persisted in the fashion of consistent "harassment" on his part than I would have taken a different route. However, I am not one who wants to throw low blows and punches on a first encounter, and for that matter, a last resort. All I simply wanted was a better understanding of why he might have asked me some things, how he may have felt, and overall, probably what should happen in the end. Overall, things seemed to have worked out well although it is still a bit early to tell.
I'm running out of time, as he and I have to go back out there (we're paired up again) but overall it's funny how things worked out. I was afraid of being hurt in real life and I was hurt on the place I turned to for advice instead. And, that was most certainly unpredictable!
I was afraid of being hurt in real life and I was hurt on the place I turned to for advice instead. And, that was most certainly unpredictable!
Troop,
For the record, I think that you are a great guy. And if I could pick 10 people that I would want to meet from this forum, you would be one of them.
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I didn't think I gave the impression at all that I was trying to push hostility on this co-worker. If I really wanted to be hostile with him I would have done so upon the initial encounter. I wasn't looking for an excuse or a way to become hostile with him. If anything, anything at all, I was looking for the advice of Christians on how they would have liked me to proceed with the matter, or at least, how they would prefer to be approached had they been in this guy's shoes probably taken slightly aback that I was indeed not a Christian and for that matter an Atheist.
While I fully understand your point about perceived occurences happening before they actually happen, I do also try to look ahead and see around the corner at what's next. Does this probably add a bit of extra stress in my life trying to predict the actions of what will happen in the future and what the outcome will be in case it does occur? I'm sure it does. However, in doing so for as long as I can remember, I have done quite well for myself as a result if even at the expense of my own personal satisfaction at times. Examining every possibility, thinking about every possible corridor that life could turn into has indeed helped me be prepared for situations that do arise. I do understand the need to worry about what is happening today instead of tomorrow, and perhaps it's just my own personality, but I feel ill-prepared for life if I have not thought things through. Call it a product of my intense curiosity but I am not the type to just "settle" for what is now when there's so much ahead.
Thinking about it from this perspective, I wonder what would have happened if I had never found this forum and never gotten to really "know" people of different faiths? How would I have approached the matter at hand? Would I have thought it through entirely or would I have spouted off at the mouth with a bit of hostility? Would I have approached it from the more Hitchens-esque angle or would I have approached it from the angle that I did end up approaching it from? In all, as part of me, I think that I would have been intimidated and, quite honestly, I don't think I would have been honest with him. More than likely, I would have probably just said that both my wife and I were Christians just to avoid any sort of argument or disagreement. However, examining my non-faith on this forum has led me to some different conclusions. One, I am indeed confident in what I know and what my ideas and thoughts are to the point that I feel I can handle it without being overly aggressive. Two, I have discovered through several friends of mine on here that people's opinions of you don't always matter. However, with that being said, with this particular case being at work, I felt like there was an intricately thin line and delicate fashion in which the matter should be approached. Because I had the availability of a little extra time I posted what I posted to try and perceive what the best options were. Again, when you think about it, I was merely trying to plot and plan what was inevitably going to happen the next time we worked together. Knowing what I wanted to say prior to that second event happening instilled me with the confidence that I could handle the situation with amicability and a lot less hostility and that was the product of me posting on here.
Was part of this all a defense mechanism as the result of past events in my life? Probably more so than less. The only thing I knew as far as this guy was concerned with faith were a few things:
1. He called gays "****" so what should I make of things if he found out I were an Atheist?
2. I do know that he is rather fundamentalist in his beliefs but as I have discovered on here that can mean one of two things (usually). Either I was in for night after night of biblical prophecy and preaching or he was going to be professional and respect what my opinions are. Based on the way I felt about #1 along with past experiences in life as well as this forum, you could say I was a little bit cautious as to how I wanted to approach the matter and I wanted to do it with the utmost genuine sincerity so as to be able to keep together a positive work environment and hopefully friendship.
What I didn't appreciate was that within all of that, I felt singled out as this ceremonious destroyer of all things and people Christian. While I can understand how some of those things may have been perceived through prior posts of mine, I'd also like to think that I am not the iconic cluster of vitriolic hate and spew that I felt I was being painted as by you. I am not a monster. I am not a cretin and I am certainly not beyond approach. I have listened, I have read, and I have examined all of the arguments for both Christianity and theism in general. I have argued, I have joked, and I have seriously addressed matters on this forum as well as a few in the Christianity forum.
Just because I make the comparison between any particular God and the Christian God does not mean that I think it's not important to you or anyone else. However, there is an indeterminable amount of ration and logic behind this comparison if you really think about it. People scoff at the mere mention of me comparing the Christian God to something like Zeus. However, people so often forget that Zeus did, at some point in history, probably play just as much an integral part in people's lives as the Christian God does in today's world. Just because we cannot see the product of those people's faith any longer it doesn't mean it wasn't real to them all the same. The same can be said for Allah and other more "modern" day Gods. It's not a comparison meant to incite riot or flame and troll, but merely an observation that people throughout all of history have sought the explanation of things with some sort of deity.
As far as the tough love portion goes... I can understand the reasoning now why you didn't DM me. Thinking about it from that perspective you are probably right. It would have made it seem more personal. However, in the end, I truly thought that what I was asking for was abundantly clear. I tried my best to put forth an image of this guy that was well respected by me but also with an added element to the process and that I wasn't out to set him on fire. If the matter had persisted in the fashion of consistent "harassment" on his part than I would have taken a different route. However, I am not one who wants to throw low blows and punches on a first encounter, and for that matter, a last resort. All I simply wanted was a better understanding of why he might have asked me some things, how he may have felt, and overall, probably what should happen in the end. Overall, things seemed to have worked out well although it is still a bit early to tell.
I'm running out of time, as he and I have to go back out there (we're paired up again) but overall it's funny how things worked out. I was afraid of being hurt in real life and I was hurt on the place I turned to for advice instead. And, that was most certainly unpredictable!
I'm really glad that things worked out okay for you at work. As a Christian I still hope and pray that you will believe in God through faith eventually, But I think that if you have to deal with the subject again at work, you will handle it very reasonably and calmly. I'm sure no one on the forum meant to hurt you, but it does happen. God bless.
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--For all those who have read this far and whose eyesight has been severely compromised as a result, June humbly apologizes.
I've been staying out of the forum wars because I don't appreciate the blatant hostility and because I choose not to engage in useless arguments with people who aren't interested in listening (really listening) to what I have to say. I only poke my head in over here every now and then, and I usually leave feeling saddened that forum participants can't have the productive conversations we once had. I'm sorry I missed the thread you mentioned; I'm sure I would have had something to say.
