Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
b, From what you quoted, I see that this thread was just a setup to get non-believers to believe. I should have figured it wasn't about honest dialog.
No it wasn't cheilgirl. Trust me. I'm a little deeper psychologically than that. I wouldn't try to "trick" someone into believing in God. Please don't be offended if it looked that way. I'm picking people's brains here. That's all. I'm trying to understand the way the Athiest mind is working, what led it there, and where it stands given certain situations.... However, I could understand why you would think that. If someone asked me about how to go about this "test" that I'm speaking of, then sure, I would ablige, but I would never get on here just to tell people to do this or that because I respect your beliefs. I thoroughly enjoy everyone's comments and thoughts and it is helpful to understand the mind and how it works in relation to the theory of God from an Athiest's prospective. So yes, my friend, let me clarify... it IS about honest " dialog".
b, From what you quoted, I see that this thread was just a setup to get non-believers to believe. I should have figured it wasn't about honest dialog.
Yea, I had to wonder what the whole point of this was. I thought it especially interesting that he posted this in the Religion forum rather then the Atheist forum. That tells me he wanted the ability to preach to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank
Well, I don't think it was a setup because I think the OP is honestly looking for something. However, nothing will be gained until all parties are willing to accept that everything they believe might be totally wrong.
I feel that way about myself, but I imagine it is very hard for someone in any religion to think that way.
What is the OP looking for? I have been reading along in the hopes of understanding that.
I have always said that if I could see some proof of something, then I would be MORE then willing to accept that. Just like I don't believe in aliens from outer space, I haven't met one yet, until I do, I can't believe.
I accept and support peoples right to choose and practice the religion or lack of it that they see fit, however I don't see certain religions being the same way, not just christians.
Nobody taught me that idea - it's my own conclusion.
I guess I don't see any way of believing in a god (and certainly not in God) without having a religion to base your beliefs on. I realize that many people say things like "I am not religious at all - I just follow Christ". Well, to me, that equals religion. Following Christ means being a Christian. But I digress...
Let me get hypothetical: Sure, absolutely if there was a way for me to test the theory that God exists by following some simple non-religious steps, I would do it. Why not?
Religion is manmade though, so I would have to say no, you wouldn't have to belong to a church to be a "Christian" as you mentioned. Interesting though that many people relate a belief in God in belonging to a particular religion. By the way, I don't attend church and am not really a part of any religion, which is why I say that, so I guess I'm a bit biased.
What do you mean when you say non-religious steps? You mean like swirling a bunch of chemicals around in a beaker would be preferable? (laughing out loud at myself...sorry...I can be an idiot sometimes)... No but seriously, when you say 'non-religious steps', you mean, without actually talking to god, right? Like, in other words, you might consider it if it didn't concern opening the Bible or asking God something directly in a very specific way using very specific words? Just clarifying..
Yea, I had to wonder what the whole point of this was. I thought it especially interesting that he posted this in the Religion forum rather then the Atheist forum. That tells me he wanted the ability to preach to us.
What is the OP looking for? I have been reading along in the hopes of understanding that.
I have always said that if I could see some proof of something, then I would be MORE then willing to accept that. Just like I don't believe in aliens from outer space, I haven't met one yet, until I do, I can't believe.
I accept and support peoples right to choose and practice the religion or lack of it that they see fit, however I don't see certain religions being the same way, not just christians.
Lindsey, believe it or not, your comments are helping me out here. As stated in the OP, I am watching responses, and I am taking in how your mind works. I do not want to offend anyone, so please let me "have that". I am noting a bit about Psychology here, as well as broadening my understanding on this very subject of why people feel the way they do, so I'm not "toying" with anyone and I don't want to get all philosophical about what my 'intentions' are. I am not all about "bible bashing" and screaming scriptures out at people, or telling you that you're all damned or something.
I understand if you do not want to know me, and why I believe the way I do, but I am still here....and still wanting to know you and why you believe the way you do. And I have only seen a couple of other Christians here..... do you think that's strange? I mean, I invited everyone in and here I am at my keyboard,.... (cricket, cricket....chirp, chirp....) and more and more Athiests keep knocking on the door to say "here I am, I'll answer!" and there are no Christians quoting scriptures or condemning anyone. I believe they may be reading in hopes to also understand.... but perhaps just taking it all in. And I prefer, like I said in the OP, that there isn't any fighting, which is why I appreciate that you guys have spoken to me as you have without resorting to putting me down or insulting me. So thank you.
I have no reason to insult you (at least not yet). I don't feel superior to someone or anyone because I believe as I do and they have a different take. I feel that is wrong. My mind works differently and I do what I think is right, I would HOPE that everyone else does the same.
The only reason I have spoken about christians is because I live in a christian dominated society, I am sure if I lived in India or where ever there would be another religion that was trying to bring me into the fold.
I have to say I'm not sure you can have a FULL understanding of how someone like me feels, I have to think there is a fundemental difference in the way our minds work. Even as a child when my parents were trying to teach me things about their religion, I thought they were nuts, I saw no sense in it so I have to think that I was born a skeptic.
I used to listen to the things my Dad said (he was a minister in the church I was raised in) and I thought his logic was NUTS. I would point out how he was making LEAPS and emotional leaps rather then looking at the logic. My Dad retired from the ministry and became a businessman and did rather well for himself. I tried to show him that the logic he used in business deals should be applied to all things. He would switch thought processes when it came to religion and I never understood that, going from logic to emotion.
To TROOP and Cncracer (and other Athiests who replied, or have yet to reply):
Thank you again for your thought provoking posts. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your prospectives and it has helped me to understand more of where you are coming from based on how your mind works. You are both very intellectual beings with multitudes of information in your fields of study. I would love to take what you said further, but unfortunately, i cannot argue science, as it is out of my realm of understanding. I never took a great interest in science, and though I am always up for a leap into understanding new things, I can't say science is one of them, as what you speak of is a bit "deep" for me. Now maybe some would not admit that, but I humbly do so, so that you will understand that it is not something I am educated on. Cncracer, your knowledge on historical religion is also quite remarkable. Social Studies was also never one of my strong areas of study, though I just got into studying the history of Reformation and Protestantism.
I would like to ask the 2 of you a question, but it may be off topic to post here. Forgive me for that, but it still ties in with the original subject, only in a different way. I had asked to understand your thinking, and you ALL have done an excellent job at explaining your dynamic, and I appreciate that. Could I ask something in preparation to follow your thought processes a bit further? It will be a continuance of the path on which we are on, so I hope you'll be up for it, while understanding that my knowledge of Science and Histoy is a bit limited.... Or would you prefer that I just stick to the original question of the post and let it lie here while we continue to see other's responses to the original post? I do not want to offend some people by straying from the original post, so I suppose the request I have would be for all readers....
The questions are:
I understand where your mind lies scientifically, though I do not understand all of the topics of which you speak of. However, here is my question, for those of us that cannot get "into" your specific theories because of lack of knowledge on the subject. If one is not well versed in your arena (the scientific realm), would you consider a more straightforward approach? If so, here is the question I would like to ask:
A) Putting all theories aside in which you spoke of, suppose a Christian asked you to approach it from another angle? Suppose a Christian asked you if you would consider trying to 'test' the theory on your own as to whether there is a God? If you were given the opportunity to perform your own test to prove the existence of God to see if it was "real", would you do it? Or would you rather not become personally involved individually and continue on your own path of study? For example, if there were a way to "connect" with this God that people speak of, in order to get answers from "Him", would you oblige to put yourself in such a position to see if you got a response? Even if you had tried before, suppose someone introduced a new way for you to (by process) find God in a one-on-one sense?
2) If you were to consider that a religion or specific church was not necessary (unless you one day wanted one) to get to know this "God", and you did not want to bring the Bible into it, would you consider initially taking it from a different angle and test it on your own? In other words, I do not speak of "becoming a Christian", per say, but rather to just test it out on your own to see if "God" happens to "connect" with you? If you had a blueprint, or a check list to try it out, would you do it, if you knew it would take a total of maybe, let's say, about 60 minutes of your life? I ask you this because I would be seriously interested in knowing whether or not "God" would reveal Himself to you, and if He did, in what manner would He do it? I would love to see what your response would be, and secondly, what would happen. Please understand, I do not wish to try to "convert" you, but rather, I am interested in knowing whether you would take the opportunity or pass it by?
Remember, if you choose not to answer, I understand. This could be straying off topic, but it actually essentially helps a Christian to understand your angle of thinking. In other words, where would you go with it if you could, and would you accept a "challenge", so to speak, to seek it out for your own personal interest in seeing what happens?
1) Putting all theories aside in which you spoke of, suppose a Christian asked you to approach it from another angle? Suppose a Christian asked you if you would consider trying to 'test' the theory on your own as to whether there is a God? If you were given the opportunity to perform your own test to prove the existence of God to see if it was "real", would you do it? Or would you rather not become personally involved individually and continue on your own path of study? For example, if there were a way to "connect" with this God that people speak of, in order to get answers from "Him", would you oblige to put yourself in such a position to see if you got a response? Even if you had tried before, suppose someone introduced a new way for you to (by process) find God in a one-on-one sense?
I do live in a world of chemistry and Physics and in my world I test everything over and over. I also do the same in my life. I have spent many years looking to see if there was something in religion I could just not see; my conclusion is I just don’t fear the unknown enough to buy into myths. As a person who makes almost all his judgments based on scientific theory, I have found a comfort in knowing the never ending natural cycle of matter and energy. I will never live long enough to see the unfolding of the universe as we open doors yet to be seen, but I have lived long enough to know it is not a creation from a god, and when the day comes my energy will be out there doing something as will my matter.
It is not hard to read and understand life on this planet. Today, with DNA, we are closing gaps and questions on where we came from faster than any time in history. Evolution is no longer a possibility it is fact. The theory will continue to be tested, but in reality each test just pulls it into a tighter form and in doing so shuts doors on the stories like Adam and Eve, The great Food, and the abundance other tails used by primitive man to explain where we cam from.
I think the problem with the retest here is not with the retesting itself, but with the conclusion there is no foundation to base a test on, and in my case the tester would have a preconceived view of the test and its outcome. In the science world this would flaw me as a tester on this project.
With that said in my view there is no method to prove there is a god, no history to prove many of the historical individuals even existed. To make matters harder there is extensive proof of fraud and so many additions added by the Church to what might have been a valued bit of history that is now worthless for research purposes. I think you have found the rock and a hard spot related to getting acceptable test or research results.
Last of all you should not think that any atheist has made this decision in a flippant manner. I know many atheist and they all have studied and questioned their decisions.
2) If you were to consider that a religion or specific church was not necessary (unless you one day wanted one) to get to know this "God", and you did not want to bring the Bible into it, would you consider initially taking it from a different angle and test it on your own? In other words, I do not speak of "becoming a Christian", per say, but rather to just test it out on your own to see if "God" happens to "connect" with you? If you had a blueprint, or a check list to try it out, would you do it, if you knew it would take a total of maybe, let's say, about 60 minutes of your life? I ask you this because I would be seriously interested in knowing whether or not "God" would reveal Himself to you, and if He did, in what manner would He do it? I would love to see what your response would be, and secondly, what would happen. Please understand, I do not wish to try to "convert" you, but rather, I am interested in knowing whether you would take the opportunity or pass it by?
I would not accept a church; I see them as the problem not a cure. I think in my studies I have found the life of The Buddha is one which I try to follow but not as a religion just as a man moving through his time on this planet.
Looking for a God to call to me is something which again think would be a waste of time as I do not accept his existence nor would I be open to taking any Drugs which might help me hear a god. (That was my attempt at humor.)
Now here are a few questions for you. You don’t have to answer, but just think about it and let your values make the judgment on it.
1- How can you support a faith that is linked with the millions of deaths over its 2000 year history?
2- How can you follow a book documented to have been adjusted to support a pseudo political organization posing as a religion?
3- How can you accept a history which has not one thread of documentation to prove it actually existed, yet has many which bring it into question?
and more and more Athiests keep knocking on the door to say "here I am, I'll answer!" and there are no Christians quoting scriptures or condemning anyone
was I supposed to??
1- How can you support a faith that is linked with the millions of deaths over its 2000 year history?
because I believe they were man-made mistakes..especially if speaking of the crusades, which were more political than religious
2- How can you follow a book documented to have been adjusted to support a pseudo political organization posing as a religion?
its not supposed to be that way, or wasnt. I believe God has control of what goes on in the world, and what went into the Bible
3- How can you accept a history which has not one thread of documentation to prove it actually existed, yet has many which bring it into question?
Does too..i saw it on the history channel-lol
seriously though, Its a heart thing on the belief.
I do live in a world of chemistry and Physics and in my world I test everything over and over. I also do the same in my life. I have spent many years looking to see if there was something in religion I could just not see; my conclusion is I just don’t fear the unknown enough to buy into myths. As a person who makes almost all his judgments based on scientific theory, I have found a comfort in knowing the never ending natural cycle of matter and energy. I will never live long enough to see the unfolding of the universe as we open doors yet to be seen, but I have lived long enough to know it is not a creation from a god, and when the day comes my energy will be out there doing something as will my matter.
It is not hard to read and understand life on this planet. Today, with DNA, we are closing gaps and questions on where we came from faster than any time in history. Evolution is no longer a possibility it is fact. The theory will continue to be tested, but in reality each test just pulls it into a tighter form and in doing so shuts doors on the stories like Adam and Eve, The great Food, and the abundance other tails used by primitive man to explain where we cam from.
I think the problem with the retest here is not with the retesting itself, but with the conclusion there is no foundation to base a test on, and in my case the tester would have a preconceived view of the test and its outcome. In the science world this would flaw me as a tester on this project.
With that said in my view there is no method to prove there is a god, no history to prove many of the historical individuals even existed. To make matters harder there is extensive proof of fraud and so many additions added by the Church to what might have been a valued bit of history that is now worthless for research purposes. I think you have found the rock and a hard spot related to getting acceptable test or research results.
Last of all you should not think that any atheist has made this decision in a flippant manner. I know many atheist and they all have studied and questioned their decisions.
I would not accept a church; I see them as the problem not a cure. I think in my studies I have found the life of The Buddha is one which I try to follow but not as a religion just as a man moving through his time on this planet.
Looking for a God to call to me is something which again think would be a waste of time as I do not accept his existence nor would I be open to taking any Drugs which might help me hear a god. (That was my attempt at humor.)
Now here are a few questions for you. You don’t have to answer, but just think about it and let your values make the judgment on it.
1- How can you support a faith that is linked with the millions of deaths over its 2000 year history?
2- How can you follow a book documented to have been adjusted to support a pseudo political organization posing as a religion?
3- How can you accept a history which has not one thread of documentation to prove it actually existed, yet has many which bring it into question?
1- While this is quite a thought provoking question, I would have to tell you that my answer to this question would not be suitable for this post. It would involve a conversation that would probably last 2 hours. But I get what you're saying, and no, I dont support religions that killed people who decided to turn their backs on that particular religion. But that's a WHOLE other thread.
2- I am sorry, but I do not follow your question. What do you mean?
3- Yes, I have seen documentarys as well, one that stuck out in my mind that showed actual caskets of people spoken of in the Bible buried in the ground. The caskets were small and had names inscribed in Hebrew (I think) and the caskets were found in orders of family members. For example, there was a group that was found that showed Jesus' 'family' members all buried together. Now while I cannot say it was 100% factual, I have also seen other things on documentarys that showed support/historcal findings linked back to the Bible. See now I wish I remember what the episodes were and how I could point you to how to obtain a copy of them. Seeing as how you are interested to a great degree in science, I think you would find them fascinating to watch. I have, however, also seen things on the history channel that were anti-christian and I closely examine what I watch to try and determine where the writers are going with it, and whether it could just be a bunch of stuff that could be made up.
And no, I would not venture to think that an Athiest just flippantly made the decision to become an Athiest, and the same for Christians. Something will always draw one to where they are and that was the reason for this post.
I have no reason to insult you (at least not yet). I don't feel superior to someone or anyone because I believe as I do and they have a different take. I feel that is wrong. My mind works differently and I do what I think is right, I would HOPE that everyone else does the same.
The only reason I have spoken about christians is because I live in a christian dominated society, I am sure if I lived in India or where ever there would be another religion that was trying to bring me into the fold.
I have to say I'm not sure you can have a FULL understanding of how someone like me feels, I have to think there is a fundemental difference in the way our minds work. Even as a child when my parents were trying to teach me things about their religion, I thought they were nuts, I saw no sense in it so I have to think that I was born a skeptic.
I used to listen to the things my Dad said (he was a minister in the church I was raised in) and I thought his logic was NUTS. I would point out how he was making LEAPS and emotional leaps rather then looking at the logic. My Dad retired from the ministry and became a businessman and did rather well for himself. I tried to show him that the logic he used in business deals should be applied to all things. He would switch thought processes when it came to religion and I never understood that, going from logic to emotion.
What religion were you raised in Lindsey? And by the way, love your cats!
Personally I don't have any problems with Christians and because there are so few atheists I have far more Christian friends than atheists. Almost all of my atheist friends are online friends who I haven't even met. I do see a wide variety of personalities, level of education, ability to express themselves, etc. on this forum from both believers and atheists as you would expect on a group of this nature. I've seen posts from both sides that are occationally brilliant and quite often downright stupid. There are also a few people who are uncessarily rude although for the most part the mods take care of that. I guess I'm fortunate because nothing tends to get me worked up and I just enjoy debating. I guess I'm in the minority on this one but I don't even mind it when someone tries to preach to me because I'm going to demand equal time and I can put up a pretty good argument when I put my mind to it. I think I mentioned how I got into a pretty intense discussion between two of my StepFather's relatives who started preaching to me when I happened to be there one Christmas. I think that if any good debaters could have witnessed our discussion they would have to admit that I clobbered them with logic.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm a little deeper psychologically than that. I wouldn't try to "trick" someone into believing in God. Please don't be offended if it looked that way. I'm picking people's brains here. That's all. I'm trying to understand the way the Athiest mind is working, what led it there, and where it stands given certain situations.... However, I could understand why you would think that. If someone asked me about how to go about this "test" that I'm speaking of, then sure, I would ablige, but I would never get on here just to tell people to do this or that because I respect your beliefs. I thoroughly enjoy everyone's comments and thoughts and it is helpful to understand the mind and how it works in relation to the theory of God from an Athiest's prospective. So yes, my friend, let me clarify... it IS about honest " dialog". 
