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Really, what WOULD it take for an unbeliever to actually believe in God and Jesus?
What if after you die you find out how horribly wrong you were but there is nothing you can do to change it then?
Why not correct the situation RIGHT NOW!!
Most people have heard of Pascal's Wager, but I will post it here just in case some have never heard it. I had never heard it until I said something very similar one time, unaware of PW, and someone else said that's "Pascal's wager". Whatever, anyone could have come up with this completely common sense "wager", just like I did.
Pascal's Wager (From Wikipedia) Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the FrenchphilosopherBlaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. It was set out in note 233 of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics
Pascal's Wager is way overthought and presented as a challenge, but the basic premise of this complicated theory is this:
Believe in God, because you have absolutely nothing to lose, and quite possibly everything to gain in doing so. If you choose not to believe in God, then you could lose everything if you are wrong.
It's been my observation that there are highly intelligent people who refuse to believe in God, and their intelligence/thinking seems to be their greatest stumbling block.
Overthinking and reasoning could be the demise of one's soul. Realizing that one's mind can never compare to the mind and thoughts of the Creator is the first and greatest step in humbleness and common sense thinking.
How would it change me or the way i live if i start believing? I see no point of believing at all.
What would believe give me that i don't already have? Nothing.
I can agree with "creator" as it's an energy that creates everything.
I do not agree with your god as a physical being, that is absolute absurd and hold no merit to my life. I'd rather believe in aliens then the "almighty"
I rely on myself in my hardest days and i blame no one for my faults. I have no need to believe something that is supposedly bigger then me, as i am who i am and I am my own god.
What would make me believe? The skies need to open up and god himself to decent down to earth for everyone to see him, then, i will take it for what it worth.
Believing "just in case" is the biggest problem i see. Scare me not!!
Also, i will greatly fail as myself if i put my life into the arms of "almighty", to me, it is a downfall of ME as a human being, that will eliminate my rational thinking, and ability to believe in myself, and take responsibilities for my own actions. Believing in myself is what keeps me going. Believing in a spirit will do the opposite.
Really, what WOULD it take for an unbeliever to actually believe in God and Jesus?
Uh...how about proof?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
What if after you die you find out how horribly wrong you were but there is nothing you can do to change it then?
Why not correct the situation RIGHT NOW!!
What if you died and found out that the real god is one only worshipped by about 50 people of a tribe in Africa in the middle of nowhere? What if that god hates followers of every single other religion?
See how flawed your argument is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
Most people have heard of Pascal's Wager, but I will post it here just in case some have never heard it. I had never heard it until I said something very similar one time, unaware of PW, and someone else said that's "Pascal's wager". Whatever, anyone could have come up with this completely common sense "wager", just like I did.
Pascal's Wager (From Wikipedia) Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the FrenchphilosopherBlaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. It was set out in note 233 of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics
Pascal's Wager is way overthought and presented as a challenge, but the basic premise of this complicated theory is this:
Believe in God, because you have absolutely nothing to lose, and quite possibly everything to gain in doing so. If you choose not to believe in God, then you could lose everything if you are wrong.
Pascal's Wager is flawed for a number of reasons. The most notable examples being:
1. It suggests that the Christian god is the only one that is to be worshipped. There are a countless number of deities worshipped in history and modern times. Hinduism itself is estimated to have over 330 million. For all you know, there could really be a god who is worshipped by some tribe in a remote village in South America. What is that's the real god? What if she hates Christians more than any religion? The bottom line is, you are taking a risk believing in any god.
2. It suggests that if there is a god, she actually cares whether or not you worship her. If she doesn't, then it doesn't matter what you believe. If I was a god, I couldn't care less whether or not people believed in me. I'd just want everybody to be good, productive citizens.
3. It suggests that if a god does care about whether or not she is worshipped, she won't mind people saying they believe just as an insurance policy. Saying you believe and actually believing are two different things. If I told you there was an adult elephant living under your house, would you believe me? Think about it. Elephants are very large animals. It would be hard to get one under a house unless you make space digging underground. Not only that, but they would leave a smell and of course waste. If the evidence indicating an elephant is present is absent, could you say in full honesty that you actually believe there was one there? Absolutely not. The same is true with the case of a god. I see no evidence for one, so I don't believe in one. If I said I believed, it would be a lie. Belief isn't something you turn on and off. So what if a god doesn't like people worshipping just as an insurance policy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
It's been my observation that there are highly intelligent people who refuse to believe in God, and their intelligence/thinking seems to be their greatest stumbling block.
Says more about your beliefs than it does about intelligent people.
For the record, there are intelligent people who are religious. They're just not fundamentalists. In modern times, many fundamentalists border on being anti-intellectuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
Overthinking and reasoning could be the demise of one's soul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord
Realizing that one's mind can never compare to the mind and thoughts of the Creator is the first and greatest step in humbleness and common sense thinking.
Yeah, well, based on reading parts of the Bible that involve money, I came to the conclusion that your god doesn't understand the concept of inflation, something we "simple-minded humans" can understand. So much for omniscience.
How much proof do you need? What kind of proof? God came in the form of Jesus Christ the man, died a horrible death and arose 3 days later. 500 people witnessed His resurrection. Isn't that proof enough, not to mention the whole of creation?
Quote:
What if you died and found out that the real god is one only worshipped by about 50 people of a tribe in Africa in the middle of nowhere? What if that god hates followers of every single other religion?
I know that there is one God, but why don't you? How can I be so certain and you aren't? Doesn't it bother you that I have the answer, and you don't?
Quote:
See how flawed your argument is?
It's not up for debate with me, it's not an argument. It's truth. What's flawed is mankind and the arrogance of man believing he is his own god. Arrogance that denies our Creator, which is denial that has eternal ramifications. As in forever.
Quote:
Pascal's Wager is flawed for a number of reasons. The most notable examples being:
1. It suggests that the Christian god is the only one that is to be worshipped. There are a countless number of deities worshipped in history and modern times. Hinduism itself is estimated to have over 330 million. For all you know, there could really be a god who is worshipped by some tribe in a remote village in South America. What is that's the real god? What if she hates Christians more than any religion? The bottom line is, you are taking a risk believing in any god.
2. It suggests that if there is a god, she actually cares whether or not you worship her. If she doesn't, then it doesn't matter what you believe. If I was a god, I couldn't care less whether or not people believed in me. I'd just want everybody to be good, productive citizens.
3. It suggests that if a god does care about whether or not she is worshipped, she won't mind people saying they believe just as an insurance policy. Saying you believe and actually believing are two different things. If I told you there was an adult elephant living under your house, would you believe me? Think about it. Elephants are very large animals. It would be hard to get one under a house unless you make space digging underground. Not only that, but they would leave a smell and of course waste. If the evidence indicating an elephant is present is absent, could you say in full honesty that you actually believe there was one there? Absolutely not. The same is true with the case of a god. I see no evidence for one, so I don't believe in one. If I said I believed, it would be a lie. Belief isn't something you turn on and off. So what if a god doesn't like people worshipping just as an insurance policy?
This is the perfect example of exactly what my OP is about. Overthinking and debating something that is a total waste of time, because it's not up for debate. God exists, whether people acknowledge that or not. I didn't post Pascal's Wager as a way to stir debate, because there are plenty of rebuttals against it from the so-called philosophers and whoever thinks they are brilliant enough to take it on.
The point is that it's complete common sense, which eludes so many. They can't see the forest for the trees, the "common sense" for the arrogant "head knowledge". Where exactly do people think all their "brilliance" comes from? Did they create themselves?
Quote:
Says more about your beliefs than it does about intelligent people.
That's not exactly a "brilliant" statement.
Quote:
For the record, there are intelligent people who are religious. They're just not fundamentalists. In modern times, many fundamentalists border on being anti-intellectuals.
Did I say religious people were not intelligent? Of course not because I would have to include myself in that group!!! Why are you talking about fundamentalists? You disagree with their beliefs, therefore they must be unintelligent because they don't think like YOU?
Quote:
Yeah, well, based on reading parts of the Bible that involve money, I came to the conclusion that your god doesn't understand the concept of inflation, something we "simple-minded humans" can understand. So much for omniscience.
Once again, Bizarre answer. God doesn't understand? Do YOU see how flawed this argument is? God CREATED ALL, therefore HE UNDERSTANDS ALL, we humans understand nothing. There's no comparison here, God is the Creator, we're the created. How can any human being expect to grasp the mind or compare him/herself to God? Unbelievable!!
How much proof do you need? What kind of proof? God came in the form of Jesus Christ the man, died a horrible death and arose 3 days later. 500 people witnessed His resurrection. Isn't that proof enough, not to mention the whole of creation?
I know that there is one God, but why don't you? How can I be so certain and you aren't? Doesn't it bother you that I have the answer, and you don't?
It's not up for debate with me, it's not an argument. It's truth. What's flawed is mankind and the arrogance of man believing he is his own god. Arrogance that denies our Creator, which is denial that has eternal ramifications. As in forever.
This is the perfect example of exactly what my OP is about. Overthinking and debating something that is a total waste of time, because it's not up for debate. God exists, whether people acknowledge that or not. I didn't post Pascal's Wager as a way to stir debate, because there are plenty of rebuttals against it from the so-called philosophers and whoever thinks they are brilliant enough to take it on.
The point is that it's complete common sense, which eludes so many. They can't see the forest for the trees, the "common sense" for the arrogant "head knowledge". Where exactly do people think all their "brilliance" comes from? Did they create themselves?
That's not exactly a "brilliant" statement.
Did I say religious people were not intelligent? Of course not because I would have to include myself in that group!!! Why are you talking about fundamentalists? You disagree with their beliefs, therefore they must be unintelligent because they don't think like YOU?
Once again, Bizarre answer. God doesn't understand? Do YOU see how flawed this argument is? God CREATED ALL, therefore HE UNDERSTANDS ALL, we humans understand nothing. There's no comparison here, God is the Creator, we're the created. How can any human being expect to grasp the mind or compare him/herself to God? Unbelievable!!
Here's what I don't get DOTL. You have posted a philosophical question and have only expected a non-philosophical retort. By the way, Pascal's Wager, as you know it is a twisted, convoluted excuse that mainstream religion has once again taken out of context to use for it's own propaganda.
What Pascal was referring to was that even if he was incorrect about his God (and not just a specific God) that at the end of his life although he and the Atheist may both go nowhere, it was to his benefit that he believed in something rather than nothing at all.
What I take issue with, in your response is that you have shut off any attempt at logical discourse and debate. You asked the question "What will it take to believe" and someone responded with "How about Proof?" Well, that's your answer DOTL, and merely making assertions based on what you think may have happened in the past is about as effective as saying that sticking a fork in my eye feels good therefore everyone else should do it.
Perhaps you've failed to recognize, but there are a wide breadth and variety of people on this planet who don't necessarily walk along their lives in lemming-like fashion. So, let's cut the crap and let's talk about evidence. Because that's what we Atheists want in order to believe. You have asserted that Jesus died for our sins and that God is real. Now, what evidence do you have to support those notions? Because that's what we're asking for. We're asking for you to prove in a rational and logical fashion that what you believe is true. We're not asking for you to stammer and quake just because we don't believe in your celestial smiley face in the sky.
Try the feeling of the Holy Spirit. God is not in proof. God is in faith. Those who have faith also have the proof.
GCSTroop and Coosjuaquin..................
What Sherry said, here's your proof. Faith is proof. Without faith, you will never have your answer.
If you want to debate Pascal's Wager, go right ahead. I was just saying that God is not debatable for me. I know that I know that I know..........but it comes from taking that first step of faith. It's easy to know God, if you really want that. Believe, and receive.
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for the arrogant "head knowledge". 
Where exactly do people think all their "brilliance" comes from? Did they create themselves? 
That's not exactly a "brilliant" statement. 
proof?
