What would it take for you to believe? What if you are wrong? (souls, Holy Spirit)

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

GCSTroop and Coosjuaquin..................
What Sherry said, here's your proof. Faith is proof. Without faith, you will never have your answer.

If you want to debate Pascal's Wager, go right ahead. I was just saying that God is not debatable for me. I know that I know that I know..........but it comes from taking that first step of faith. It's easy to know God, if you really want that. Believe, and receive.

Here's the disconnect I have, DOTL. You talk about faith as being evidence but if faith were a good modicum for evidence we wouldn't call it faith, we'd call it 'fact'. The problem is that you're asserting that a lack of evidence is somehow propagated and added to by the word 'faith.'

Your OP was a question seemingly directed at asking people what it'd take to believe not as a refinement of your faith. If I misunderstood that then I'm sorry but it seems like you set out to try and prove us otherwise.

Why should I have to use faith to believe in something? It seems like a cop-out for those who already know there is no such thing as good evidence to believe in God. Therefore, I remain an Atheist until faith can be supplanted by good, solid evidence.

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

How much proof do you need? What kind of proof? God came in the form of Jesus Christ the man, died a horrible death and arose 3 days later. 500 people witnessed His resurrection. Isn't that proof enough, not to mention the whole of creation?

A book isn't evidence of itself. These events have never been proven.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

I know that there is one God, but why don't you? How can I be so certain and you aren't? Doesn't it bother you that I have the answer, and you don't?

No, it bothers me that people like you insist that you have the right answer and you actually don't. Witnessing is arrogance, no matter what spin you try to put on it.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

It's not up for debate with me, it's not an argument. It's truth.

Somebody apparently has never taken even an introductory philosphy course. When you try to present a point to back up what you are saying it is an argument for your position, period. Don't try to play the definitions game because it doesn't work. Pascal's Wager and every other "point" people try to make to convince people to believe in a god are in fact arguments. Shall we bring out the dictionary?

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

What's flawed is mankind and the arrogance of man believing he is his own god. Arrogance that denies our Creator, which is denial that has eternal ramifications. As in forever.

So your argument here is essentially that since a person doesn't believe in a god, they make themselves their own god? That doesn't even deserve a response. I guess I'm my own Santa Claus because I don't believe in him either.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

This is the perfect example of exactly what my OP is about. Overthinking and debating something that is a total waste of time, because it's not up for debate.

Don't look at it as a problem with human's use of logic. Look at it as seeing the holes in an argument that is highly flawed. And by the way, no argument is above debate and criticism. You lose more credibility the more and more you type.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

God exists, whether people acknowledge that or not.

Smh.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

I didn't post Pascal's Wager as a way to stir debate, because there are plenty of rebuttals against it from the so-called philosophers and whoever thinks they are brilliant enough to take it on.

The brilliant ones are the people who can make arguments that don't have flaws and can see the flaws in other's arguments. Pascal's Wager has so many flaws, it's unbelievable.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

The point is that it's complete common sense, which eludes so many. They can't see the forest for the trees, the "common sense" for the arrogant "head knowledge".

So people who don't believe in a god are arrogant? That doesn't even deserve a response.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

Where exactly do people think all their "brilliance" comes from? Did they create themselves?

I was wondering how long it would be before I'd see a strawman.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

That's not exactly a "brilliant" statement.

Did I say religious people were not intelligent? Of course not because I would have to include myself in that group!!! Why are you talking about fundamentalists? You disagree with their beliefs, therefore they must be unintelligent because they don't think like YOU?

Another strawman. I said that many fundamentalists in this time are anti-intellectuals minus the title. The claims of many religions are contrary to what is common knowledge in this day and age. For those religions not to go extinct, they have to reject facts that don't coincide with their flawed belief systems.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

Once again, Bizarre answer. God doesn't understand? Do YOU see how flawed this argument is? God CREATED ALL, therefore HE UNDERSTANDS ALL, we humans understand nothing. There's no comparison here, God is the Creator, we're the created. How can any human being expect to grasp the mind or compare him/herself to God? Unbelievable!!

Oh, so now you want to talk about flawed arguments (Although mine wasn't), yet you try to exclude Pascal's Wager as if it isn't an argument. Thanks for making your hypocrisy and double standards so apparent. Newsflash, any point (whether it is a good one or not) that is made to try to prove somebody wrong or convince them to agree with you is in fact an argument. If an argument if flawed, it isn't really worthy of acceptance, now is it?

Pascal's Wager has many flaws. It is neither plausible nor rational, period.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

GCSTroop and Coosjuaquin..................
What Sherry said, here's your proof. Faith is proof. Without faith, you will never have your answer.

If you want to debate Pascal's Wager, go right ahead. I was just saying that God is not debatable for me. I know that I know that I know..........but it comes from taking that first step of faith. It's easy to know God, if you really want that. Believe, and receive.

Well let us hope that there are no atheists out there who have faith that there is no god because that would prove that there isn't.

Call it what you want but trying to convince us that we should not question things(by which you really mean things to do with your concept of god and christianity) is in itself debate.

[Haaziq]

If there was actually evidence, there would be no need for faith.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by Haaziq

If there was actually evidence, there would be no need for faith.

Which is interesting because it puts DOTL in a really sticky situation. On the one hand, if DOTL could supply us with something that can even be considered tangible evidence then it would cause Christianity itself to collapse since so much of it is built around the importance of faith but since DOTL cannot then there is no reason for us to believe.

Because of that connundrum, I think the idea of hell got started. Hell seems to be a device created for the sole purpose to give people a "nudge" into belief because there really is no suitable reason to take things by faith.

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

Which is interesting because it puts DOTL in a really sticky situation. On the one hand, if DOTL could supply us with something that can even be considered tangible evidence then it would cause Christianity itself to collapse since so much of it is built around the importance of faith but since DOTL cannot then there is no reason for us to believe.

Because of that connundrum, I think the idea of hell got started. Hell seems to be a device created for the sole purpose to give people a "nudge" into belief because there really is no suitable reason to take things by faith.

I agree.

Well, I'm stepping out for a while. Will reply to any posts when I get back.

[*sherry*]

I am still standing on the premise that if you have faith you will have your proof. My very first prayers consisted of prayers to God that asked that if he was there would he please "prove." it to me. I did not receive this "proof" that you speak of until after I was saved and baptised. Today the holy spirit presents itself to me on a regular basis and I thank God for this feeling. It is a feeling that I had never felt before being saved and baptized. So I do not know how to "prove" anything to you as you have not had the same experiences I have. Just a question though, as an unbeliever, how does the bible fit into your life? or does it? and if it doesn't, how do you substantiate the fact that God knew that many in the world would not believe and there would be more and more evil....as that is what has happened...and even the "nonbelievers" can't say that murder, adultery, etc hasn't increased with time.

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by sherryturner

I am still standing on the premise that if you have faith you will have your proof. My very first prayers consisted of prayers to God that asked that if he was there would he please "prove." it to me. I did not receive this "proof" that you speak of until after I was saved and baptised. Today the holy spirit presents itself to me on a regular basis and I thank God for this feeling. It is a feeling that I had never felt before being saved and baptized. So I do not know how to "prove" anything to you as you have not had the same experiences I have.

That's the thing though you can't prove it to anyone else but yourself. These things need to be taken on faith and trying to "prove" the validity of your beliefs only leads to the systematic denial of that faith which jesus told us was so necessary(so much so that it would allow us to move mountains). Faith is a very personal thing and I'm afraid not for everyone.

Originally Posted by sherryturner

Just a question though, as an unbeliever, how does the bible fit into your life? or does it?

The bible itself doesn't fit into my life but the people who follow their own interpretations of the bible sure do and learning to deal with each other nicely is part of life.

Originally Posted by sherryturner

and if it doesn't, how do you substantiate the fact that God knew that many in the world would not believe

These statements seem quite obvious to me.

Originally Posted by sherryturner

and there would be more and more evil....as that is what has happened...and even the "nonbelievers" can't say that murder, adultery, etc hasn't increased with time.

Well we'll soon be hitting the seven billion people milestone. The biggest empire back then hadn't even reached a million people and there were no news crew covering tragedies on the other side of the globe.

[ShepsMom]

Originally Posted by sherryturner

I am still standing on the premise that if you have faith you will have your proof. My very first prayers consisted of prayers to God that asked that if he was there would he please "prove." it to me. I did not receive this "proof" that you speak of until after I was saved and baptised. Today the holy spirit presents itself to me on a regular basis and I thank God for this feeling. It is a feeling that I had never felt before being saved and baptized. So I do not know how to "prove" anything to you as you have not had the same experiences I have. Just a question though, as an unbeliever, how does the bible fit into your life? or does it? and if it doesn't, how do you substantiate the fact that God knew that many in the world would not believe and there would be more and more evil....as that is what has happened...and even the "nonbelievers" can't say that murder, adultery, etc hasn't increased with time.

So what would happen to you if you weren't baptized? I wasn't, but my sister was, she didn't receive "holy spirit" as you did and is "unbeliever".

It's interesting, but it appears that only certain people receive holy spirit, but not everyone, no matter how much they try.

The only thing about bible, that is has good moral values, which could be very well written by men of the time they lived in, to keep order and laws as we have now, i see it as book of history about places that did exist, people were real, and so were wars. However, i don't believe in any magic such as talking snakes, gigantic arc, people made out of sand and ribs, and i can't, for the life of me, understand, how can anyone believe in such nonsense.

[*sherry*]

I can see how you have the thoughts that you do. I had to seach long and hard. I visited many churches and talked to many people. I can truely say that I didn't feel the Holy Spirit in places that I thought that I should be able to. I didn't feel it in every church I visited...only in some. I don't feel it all the time, only some of the time. I can't logically find the reason for this except that God doesn't mean for me to. Once it is felt it is hard to deny. I have had many more experiences in my life to make my faith strong..not only the Holy Spirit.
I do not think your views are nonsense...I just pray that you can have the same experiences that I have had. Without the experiences I have had I don't know where I'd be. I know I'd be lost. Speaking of the Ark, there is some "physical" evidence of it's existence. I've read it on the internet and also seen a couple of programs about it. I am not educated enough about the particular subject to say much though. But I know that if you look it up on the internet you can find more information about it. Look up Noah's Ark and location...I'm assuming this is what you were referring to. To find out if the information you are reading is true you always cross reference it with the Bible. In fact every thing that is said to be from God should be tested with the Bible.