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My point is that the God you hate will end up ruling the entire earth - with or without you. He gave us signs to mark the time frame when he will take action and all of these signs are in place right now. It would be wise for you to do things HIS way.
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Unfortunately for you, the principle of love your neighbor only works if your neighbor also follows the principle.
Not true! The true Christian loves his neighbor regardless of his neighbor's attitude.
"YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? " (Matthew 5:43-48)
"But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU." (Luke 6:27-28)
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And since you admitted yourself that these principles are only for believers, then THAT FAILS.
For those who do not apply them. I said they were INTENDED for believers only. Others can adopt them.
Besides there are millions of people who love their fellow men - even enemies. If it works for them, there is no failure.
Remember, if Biblical principles are APPLIED, they simply cannot fail.
David's line must be passed from father to son to reach Jesus. It doesn’t jump from one’s stepfather. Of course Christians will argue that it does and because Joseph (allegedly) adopted Jesus, he gave over the inheritance of the royal line. But, just as with the Kohanim, an adopted son cannot become a Kohane. So, too, a son adopted by a member of the royal line cannot become heir to the throne.
Jewish ideas on what the messiah would be are clearly different than the life of Jesus. However
1: It would be a mistake to confuse Rabbinic Judaism as we have know it for the last 18 centuries with Judaism of Jesus's time. The earliest Christian Bibles are based on the Septuagint rather than formulation of Tanakh that Judaism now uses. (Protestants jettisoned that, but the legitimacy of Protestantism is not something I'm particularly concerned with here) In addition Jews of that era had a variety of contending schools and it is at least defensible to say some Jews considered Jesus a valid Messiah.
2: Christianity traditionally holds that Jews likely misinterpreted or misunderstood certain commandments of God.
3: For a non-theist to argue that a Jewish messiah has to completely follow the rules of what that means is logical, but also strikes me as potentially peculiar. If the rules of what makes a Jewish messiah is in itself based on delusion why is one version of that delusion more valid than another? I mean I mostly get it, but it strikes me as a way to say that your problem really is just Christianity and not religion. If we converted to Judaism that would be preferable to staying Christians for you.
2: Christianity traditionally holds that Jews likely misinterpreted or misunderstood certain commandments of God.
That's just what the Jews say about Christians. It was, after all, the religion of the Jews. It was their prophecies, their messiah, they should know the rules for the Messiah. It was Christianity that highjacked it all and then proceeded to tell the Jews that they were wrong.
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If the rules of what makes a Jewish messiah is in itself based on delusion why is one version of that delusion more valid than another?
It's my opinion that the Jews would know the score better than Christians. Jews don't believe that JC was their Messiah based on him not fulfilling their own prophecies for the Messiah, including the line back to David. Christianity then comes along and tells them that they have it all wrong!!
I was hoping some of our Jewish friends here would add their comments.
That's just what the Jews say about Christians. It was, after all, the religion of the Jews. It was their prophecies, their messiah, they should know the rules for the Messiah. It was Christianity that highjacked it all and then proceeded to tell the Jews that they were wrong.
The first Christians were Jews so it was one group of Jews telling another they're wrong.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
It's my opinion that the Jews would know the score better than Christians.
I guess that can be stated, but it's neither inevitable nor necessary for a Christian to care about that opinion. It has bothered me at times, as it seems to indicate Christ is not legitimate, but the mainstream Jewish understanding of the messiah strikes me as wrong. To me it sounds inherently ethnocentric and a bit too political.
And it's not inevitable that the main stream of a movement can be the only correct interpreters of it.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Jews don't believe that JC was their Messiah based on him not fulfilling their own prophecies for the Messiah, including the line back to David. Christianity then comes along and tells them that they have it all wrong!!
It's not like Christianity arrived centuries later and then said a bunch of stuff. Christ lived before Rabbinic Judaism as we know it was even formulated.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
I was hoping some of our Jewish friends here would add their comments.
Sure and it's understandable they might argue against Christianity from a Jewish perspective.
I think what really upsets non-theists here is Christianity more than religion or anything else. I used to think that it would be disappointing to atheists here if someone here left Christianity for a different religion due to discussions here, but now I think the point really is just that as long as we leave Christianity it really doesn't matter where we end up. If we end up as ultra-Orthodox Jews who oppose same-sex marriage or Confucians who believe in the submission of women as long as we're not Christian anymore it's all good. (Well probably Islam is not desired either)
David's line must be passed from father to son to reach Jesus. It doesn’t jump from one’s stepfather. Of course Christians will argue that it does and because Joseph (allegedly) adopted Jesus, he gave over the inheritance of the royal line. But, just as with the Kohanim, an adopted son cannot become a Kohane. So, too, a son adopted by a member of the royal line cannot become heir to the throne.
Where did you read that rule about kingly succession?
Where did you read that rule about kingly succession?
What rule.....re adoptions?
An adopted son cannot become a Kohane.
If a Levite, has a son, that son is a Levite. However, if he adopts a boy who is not his natural son, the adopted boy is not a Levite.
What makes you think it's any different for kingly succession?
The royal succession must pass through the blood line of the father. Jesus was not the blood relative of Jesus. There is NO BLOOD LINK between Jesus and Joe.
Where did you read that rule about kingly descent involving the Messiah?
Here's a bit more historical perspective:
Herod's Burning of the Jewish Genealogies
GYDINGA SAGA and in the Second Old Norwegian Epiphany Homily,
by Thomas N. Hall, [University of Illinois at Chicago], from Mediaeval Studies, Volume 61; copyright 1999, by the Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, pages 173 -204.
From page 178:
"But the aforementioned men had especially committed that to record, that during that time all the genealogies of the Hebrews had been preserved in writing in the more secret archives of the temple
, which also contained records of the origins of all foreigners, such as Achior from the Ammonites and Ruth from the Moabites, as well as others who had come from Egypt who were said to have mixed with the Israelites. . . ."
The following quote provides historical understanding, as to why the genealogies "kept" in St. Matthew and St. Luke, would be found as written contemporaneously with the Time of the Messiah Jesus Christ.
Book I Chapter VII
"11 . . . Antipater, son of a certain temple slave named Herod. And since the priest was not able to pay the ransom for his son, Antipater was brought up in the customs of the Idumeans, and afterward was befriended by Hyrcanus, the high priest of the Jews.
12 And having, been sent by Hyrcanus on an embassy to Pompey, and having restored to him the kingdom which had been invaded by his brother Aristobulus, he had the good fortune to be named procurator of Palestine. But Antipater having been slain by those who were envious of his great good fortune was succeeded by his son Herod, who was afterward, by a decree of the senate, made King of the Jews under Antony and Augustus. His sons were Herod and the other tetrarchs. These accounts agree also with those of the Greeks.
13 But as there had been kept in the archives up to that time the genealogies of the Hebrews as well as of those who traced their lineage back to proselytes, such as Achior the Ammonite and Ruth the Moabitess, and to those who were mingled with the Israelites and came out of Egypt with them, Herod, inasmuch as the lineage of the Israelites contributed nothing to his advantage, and since he was goaded with the consciousness of his own ignoble extraction, burned all the genealogical records, thinking that he might appear of noble origin if no one else were able, from the public registers, to trace back his lineage to the patriarchs or proselytes and to those mingled with them, who were called Georae.
mhtml:http://ftp.rootsweb.ancestry.com/pub/rootsl/messages/00nov/140587 (http://ftp.rootsweb.ancestry.com/pub/rootsl/messages/00nov/140587 - broken link)
Other prophecies concerned the physical lineage of the Messiah.
The official Jewish genealogies were kept in the temple. These perished when the temple and the archives in Jerusalem were burned by the Romans in 70. Since it was prophesied that the Messiah would descend from Abraham and David (Genesis 12:1-7; Jeremiah 33:15), it was necessary for anyone who claimed to be the Messiah to be able to verify his ancestry through these official genealogical records.
The Jews had a legitimate concern over genealogical records, for these determined who was an Israelite and who was not. If a man were of Abrahamic descent, these records would confirm his religious, hereditary and biological rights. If not, he was considered a Gentile and wasn't regarded as part of the Israelite nation or of its inheritance.
These records were also important to authenticate the Aaronic descent of the priests and those who claimed Levitical descent. We can
see its importance in Ezra 2:62, when certain people claimed to be priests. 'These sought their listing among those who were registered by genealogy, but they were not found; therefore they were excluded from the priesthood as defiled."
So in Jesus' time if one claimed to be the Messiah he would have to prove through his genealogy that he had descended from Abraham and David. To prove this was the case for Jesus, the Gospel writers placed His genealogies at the beginning of Matthew (Joseph's genealogy) and in Luke 3 (Mary's genealogy) for all to see and verify.
It would have been easy for Jesus' adversaries to have refuted His claims to be the Messiah by simply comparing his genealogies with the official records of the time and have shown this was not the case. Scripture doesn't record any instance of the Jewish leaders challenging Jesus on this point.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary points out: "Matthew's genealogy answered the important question a Jew would rightfully ask about anyone who claimed to be King of the Jews. Is He a descendant of David through the rightful line of succession? Matthew answered yes!"
Once the official genealogical records were destroyed in 70, there was no way to confirm if one who claimed to be the Messiah was descended from David. Now, no Jew can officially prove he is descended from Abraham and King David." (Logos Software, 1996).
"By the First Century, the Sanhedrin was in charge of determining who was qualified to be a priest, and met daily regarding new candidates. Two principal issues were considered: Was the candidate of the tribe of Lev!? And did he have any physical deformity? (Leviticus 21:17-23).
Regarding descent, all genealogical records were kept in the Temple, and so a careful search was possible. This was how the genealogies of Jesus were obtained as recorded in Matthew and Luke."
(Insight On The Scriptures, 1988, Vol 1)
Last edited by wilsoncole; 04-17-2010 at 01:09 PM..
Not concerned about any Kohane nor about Levites! I asked you about the rule about kingly succession involving the Messiah. Where did you read that rule?
Not concerned about any Kohane nor about Levites! I asked you about the rule about kingly succession involving the Messiah. Where did you read that rule?
It's called Agnatic succession and you can read all about it on page 41 of a book called "DNA and Tradition: The Genetic Link to the Ancient Hebrews". The author is Yaakov Kleiman. In it you will find such gems as.....
"The Torah based tradition is that the Jewish nationality is determined by the mother's status and that tribal membership follows the father's lineage."
and.....
"An adoptee is not a “descendant”. He only inherits property–not a bloodline of a Throne."
It will probably cost you about $50 these days. Go buy it like I had to and do your own research. As I said previously, I tire of your semantics dude. The information is out there....go fetch Fido!! I'm done with going over the same ground.
Here, I'll be generous and start you off....
Agnatic succession
Agnatic succession means women are not allowed to succeed, or pass the succession from their fathers to their children. Agnates are relatives who have a common ancestor in an unbroken male line, from father to father.
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