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Do Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is to be an exalted man-god like their heavenly father is, and do Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is married to wives that he will "resurrect from the dead", and will have children forever, by them, somewhere, which children will call him "heavenly father" and worship him as "god"?
Do Mormons sing songs lauding/praising Joseph Smith?
How did God use him to prove that he was from God? How is he different from others who prophesy? And what could need restoring in God's Church? I think you may be saying that he tried to restore a man's church. God's church is as perfect as it can be. Any imperfection is of man.
Examples please...
Precisely, the imperfections were of man. Thats why the restoration was so important.
No I dont mean a man's church, I mean Christs church. Joseph was 14 when he asked God which church to join. Answer: none.
You have to find out for yourself if he was different, I can not convince you. Just as millions of others have done and found out for themselves....
Right, well then you know that the Church fell into apostasy after Christs death/resurrection. And you know that it had been altered by the teachings of men and of rulers and kings. Leading to the splintering of the Catholic church and the various protestant sects. Consequently the church lost the basic authority and priesthood of God, this coincided with the dark ages. The Church never went away, but that authority was lost and needed restoring on earth....and as you know the gospel of Christ is true whether you believe it or not. I can only try to help those that reject Gods word.
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God is the head of the Church, yes I agree with you.....nice research!
Christ's Church has never fallen into anything. Christ's Church is headquartered in heaven above, as I showed you from the Scriptures. That church is called the City of God/the Bride of Christ, and it is being built still, day by day, in this Church age, as the Holy Spirit adds to His church daily such as are saved =born again in Spirit.
As the letters to the seven churches in Asia in the Revelation of Jesus Christ shows us, any earthly Church branch of the One Living Church of Christ, which is headquartered in heaven, which falls from what it is called to in Christ gets its "Light" removed. That Light is Christ, and that branch is no longer a "living Church" on earth because the Light which is Christ no longer walks among them; but that touches nothing of the Church of Christ which is Zion above, the City of God/ Jerusalem above.
Precisely, the imperfections were of man. Thats why the restoration was so important.
No I dont mean a man's church, I mean Christs church. Joseph was 14 when he asked God which church to join. Answer: none.
You have to find out for yourself if he was different, I can not convince you. Just as millions of others have done and found out for themselves....
When I was 17, I asked God on bended knee, with all my heart, what Church was right, and how to be saved. He answered me Scripturally: He showed me Jesus Christ as the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life.
There is no life in any earthly organization membership. Only in the name of Jesus Christ is there Life, and that Life is only given to a soul by the Holy Spirit of adoption joining them to the Living Spirit, which is Christ.
Jesus' born again in His Living Spirit, adopted, sons meet and fellowship together under many branch names on earth, but not one of those names teaches a false Jesus, a false gospel, and has a false spirit.
Mormonism has a different Jesus, a different gospel, and is of a different spirit.
It is the LORD who adds to His Church daily, those that are born again. No one can "join" Zion above, but only the Holy Spirit adds one to the Church, whose membership rolls are those names written in Mount Zion/Jerusalem above/the Church of God, of the heavenlies.
Using both brain and spirit is logical and reasonable...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt
1. ...I declare that it is.
2. ...The scriptures are physical things in this world. I can touch them with my hands....
3. The brain doesn't teach anything. You are personifying the brain. That is funny.
4. Hey, something we agree on. I agree that I am really not all that special or unique.
5. I don't want people to follow me. I want then to follow reason and truth. I want people to not be afraid to learn what they don't know. I don't think it is wise to willfully blind yourself to relevant evidence. I don't see how people can defend the position of not looking into something.
1. I understand that you have trained your brain to become so convinced that you are right about one obscure book in the Pearl of Great Price having some manmade mistakes in it and that it is therefore "a fraud" that you have the audacity to "DECLARE" that it is so!
You publicly identify your occupation in your CD profile as "masters level psychologist" which means that you may or may not even have an accredited junior graduate degree. But there are probably thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of faithful Latter-day Saints with similar degrees, so that is not what happened to turn you into an atheist and that certainly does not make you the ultimate expert on the Book of Abraham or any other scripture.
If you're looking for a scholarly argument I suggest that you take your discussion to a scholarly place such as MADB where I'm sure you will find many learned people who would love to debate you about the Book of Abraham, and who would almost certainly put you in your place. All that is happening here in this thread is that you are telling us that your own brain and conclusions are superior to that of others.
It's possible that nobody here is adequately equipped to challenge you on that issue possibly because none of us are likely interested enough in your mission to steep ourselves in anti-Mormom and atheist media, media that can eventually become intellectually persuasive enough to train the brain to conviction. Especially when the Saints know that the brain is "an enemy" to God and spirituality. (And besides, you demand that the conversation be restricted to your rules, being most likely arm of flesh brain tissue only, nothing spiritual even though it's a matter of religion.)
"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Mosiah 3: 19
2. Yes of course, the words written in books we classify as "scripture" are often printed on pages of physical paper and you can touch them with your fingers. But the meaning and the spirit that come with humble sincere study of scriptures is a matter of religion and spirituality and is not tangible.
3. That is funny! I thought that most atheists likely identified themselves as their brain. They deny that they have a spirit or soul, what else can they personify? Start lopping off fingers, hands, arms, toes, feet, legs, internal organs, etc. at what point do you cease to be you if you are an atheist? When the brain dies maybe??
4. Wonderful, we're making progress then, you're just another human being, your capacity for critical intellectual analysis and reaching valid conclusions is most likely not better than anyone else's. Great!
5. So what you're saying then is that you want people to totally ignore spiritual things when investigating spiritual and religious matters and to rely solely on their 'arm of flesh' fragile and frail physical brain.
You declare that you "don't see how people can defend the position of not looking into something." Yet you offer the typical atheist trap, wanting to butt into religion and spirituality but in effect closing their spiritual eyes and ears and using only tools that were not designed to explore such things, tools that can draw only one conclusion, that nothing exists that the brain or manufactured tools cannot detect or explain because the brain and manufactured tools cannot detect or explain them! And you call that illogical method "looking into something?"
But it's typical of an atheist to claim that only by "reason" can "truth" be arrived at. Well, somebody's "truth" I guess, even scholars with years of schooling behind them often examine the same evidence, excercise reason, and arrive at very different versions of the truth.
As for me, I'll continue to find it most reasonable to rely primarily on the Spirit and spiritual tools and methods such as prayer and fasting to help reach conclusions about religious and spiritual matters, and primarily on my brain when it's things pertaining to the physical world.
For example, in these times when sudden global economic and social collapse is a distinct possiblity and prophesies indicate that it will be so, I'll pray and put my trust in the Lord for my family's safety, and I'll also do what I can to store food and emergency supplies, and plan for such an event should it materialize.
Using both brain and spirit in my opinion is the most logical and reasonable thing for a human being to do. I think it folly to deny one or the other.
Do Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is to be an exalted man-god like their heavenly father is, and do Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is married to wives that he will "resurrect from the dead", and will have children forever, by them, somewhere, which children will call him "heavenly father" and worship him as "god"?
Do Mormons sing songs lauding/praising Joseph Smith?
Mormons believe as man is God once was, as God is man can become. You are trying to reveal some kind of disturbing facts about the Church that dont exist. The doctrine is simple, you can create your own thoughts about what that means, but that doesnt make it truth. You keep mentioning the term Heavely Father like thats a bad thing. YES, we believe that we are literal children of God. We believe that we are created literally in Gods image. We believe that man gets a taste of Gods love when we have children of our own, thats the only way I can relate to all encompassing love. Thats the way we can relate to the Father wanting the best and everything for his children.
As for the question regarding resurrection, dont you believe in the resurrection?
Songs regarding the prophet Joseph Smith? Yes. So. That in no way means we worship him or put him in any way equal to Christ.
When I was 17, I asked God on bended knee, with all my heart, what Church was right, and how to be saved. He answered me Scripturally: He showed me Jesus Christ as the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life.
There is no life in any earthly organization membership. Only in the name of Jesus Christ is there Life, and that Life is only given to a soul by the Holy Spirit of adoption joining them to the Living Spirit, which is Christ.
Jesus' born again in His Living Spirit, adopted, sons meet and fellowship together under many branch names on earth, but not one of those names teaches a false Jesus, a false gospel, and has a false spirit.
Mormonism has a different Jesus, a different gospel, and is of a different spirit.
It is the LORD who adds to His Church daily, those that are born again. No one can "join" Zion above, but only the Holy Spirit adds one to the Church, whose membership rolls are those names written in Mount Zion/Jerusalem above/the Church of God, of the heavenlies.
Great. For some the Lord reveals things in his time, line upon line, precept upon precept....
The Lord welcomes all.
Your different Jesus/gospel comments are just so ridiculous, nearly to make all of your other text of no use....
A good concise history of Joseph Smith:
Meridian Magazine:Praise to the Man (http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients/050613praise.html - broken link)
Joseph Smith’s divine call came in the spring of 1820, of which he wrote, “I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other — This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith History 1:17). Three and a half years later, the angel Moroni appeared to him and “called [him] by name” and told him that his “name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (Joseph Smith History 1:33). Though the heavenly beings honored Joseph, the story of his vision excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution...........
describe in simple terms topics such as "Attending a Mormon Service"
Funny thing, the only time I spent time attending any Church in my Adult Life, it was a Mormon Church.
Quote:
You need to give up on the clarity you look for on the improper use of 16th century English. It matters not, that means nothing. Joseph was a young man without much education, he was not a scholar or a professional translator.
So why did he not translate it into the language he was familiar with instead of a **** poor job of using 16th century English.
I did a bit of thinking about the response of the Mormons on this board. Instead of allowing the light of Christ to show in their words they are like some old Crusaders in a castle on an isolated hill somewhere. The are so afraid of an attack by the Saracens that as soon as they see anyone they start firing off their cannons in every direction.
It matters not that the person they saw was just a shepherd tending his flocks, or the duchess from the nearby castle out with her ladies for a picnic, or some fishermen tending their nets.
They react with full firepower as if the Saracens were indeed attacking with thousands of suicidal Jannissaries.
The only reason I can see for this is a deep deep insecurity about the validity of their faith. I trust they do not represent the majority of Mormons, for these people on this board are not a credit to the people who believe.
Slo, justamere etc, you should be deeply embarrassed.
If you haven’t yet seen "MormonsMadeSimple" you should check it out. It’s a web site with short, cute, cartoon type videos which describe in simple terms topics such as "Attending a Mormon Service" and myths such as "Mormons are Polygamous" and "Mormons are not Christian."
I for one have stated, that I am not the least bit interested in lessons on Mormon theology, I have no interest in proving it right or wrong.
I am reading a book, I have questions about things I read in that book. Simple.
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Using both brain and spirit is logical and reasonable...
