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Old 02-10-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
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Next question, I have attempted to give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a problem here. If a linguist translates a language into another, they translate using contemporary usage. The King James Bible uses the language it does because that was the contemporary language of the day.

The Book of Mormon was translated from another language into English, but the English used was an approximation of 16th century English. Not early 19th Century English, Why?

And example, "sayeth" appears in the book, but was not used in American speech, "said" would be appropriate.

 
Old 02-10-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,724,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Next question, I have attempted to give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a problem here. If a linguist translates a language into another, they translate using contemporary usage. The King James Bible uses the language it does because that was the contemporary language of the day.

The Book of Mormon was translated from another language into English, but the English used was an approximation of 16th century English. Not early 19th Century English, Why?

And example, "sayeth" appears in the book, but was not used in American speech, "said" would be appropriate.
Better still, why is a fair portion of the Book of Mormon ripped almost word for word from the King James Version of Isaiah?
 
Old 02-10-2010, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,502,137 times
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One question at a time por favor. No answer to my question though, or yours. If a person is looking for information, but, those who have that information refuse to supply it, that says something.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,898 posts, read 29,722,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Better still, why is a fair portion of the Book of Mormon ripped almost word for word from the King James Version of Isaiah?
2 Nephi (where these quotes come from) specifically states that the Nephite people loved the words of Isaiah and took copies of his words with them when they left Jerusalem. It is made absolutely clear that it is Isaiah that is being quoted.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,898 posts, read 29,722,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Next question, I have attempted to give the benefit of the doubt, but there is a problem here. If a linguist translates a language into another, they translate using contemporary usage. The King James Bible uses the language it does because that was the contemporary language of the day.

The Book of Mormon was translated from another language into English, but the English used was an approximation of 16th century English. Not early 19th Century English, Why?

And example, "sayeth" appears in the book, but was not used in American speech, "said" would be appropriate.
At the time the Book of Mormon was translated, King James English was considered to be the language of scripture. There weren't the many "modern" English versions of the Bible that we have today. Joseph simply used the language that, to him (and probably most people of his day) seemed appropriate for sacred text. He could have translated the words into a more contemporary language, but chose not to.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,498 posts, read 36,996,891 times
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Quote:
"The Book of Mormon is really a clever adaptation of an obscure, unpublished historical novel written during the War of 1812 in Conneaut, OH and Pittsburgh, PA by a down-and-out ex-preacher named Solomon Spalding, a Revolutionary War veteran and bankrupt land speculator who died at Amity, Washington County, PA in 1816 and lies buried in the churchyard there. Prior to his death, Spalding had complained to friends and relatives that a draft of his novel, A Manuscript Found, had been stolen from the shelves of Pittsburgh publisher R.& J. Patterson, by one Sidney Rigdon. This same Rigdon later became one of the three principal founders of the Mormon religious movement along with co-conspirators Joseph Smith, Jr., and Smith’s cousin Oliver Cowdery, an itinerant book peddler and sometimes printer. According to Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Spalding Enigma, it all began as an elaborate get-rich-quick scheme which Joseph Smith himself referred to as "the Gold-Bible business" in an 1829 letter.
Who wrote the Book of Mormon?

Is this true?
 
Old 02-11-2010, 12:44 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,437,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
This is true: [documented that Spalding wrote a fiction novel and Rigdon stole it from the publishers].
Amazon.com: Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Spalding Enigma (9780758605276): Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis, Arthur Vanick: Books
Quote:



From reviews -
Mormon apologists have long been challenging critics to a) come up with a more plausible account of the creation of the Book of Mormon than their official one, and b) come up with original material. This book succeeds masterfully at both.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,883,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
That is one of the theories that is put forward by some. I am very familiar with the arguments and evidence that people use who support that theory and those who find it untenable. At present, no one has put together a case that completely resolves the question of who wrote the Book of Mormon or how. I am convinced that it definitely wasn't an ancient American named Nephi or Mormon or Moroni; to me that is really all that matters.

I much prefer the crystal clear case against the Book of Abraham, rather than the murkiness of trying to figure out who wrote the Book of Mormon. The fact of the matter is we don't have Spalding's manuscript that Sidney supposedly stole. Sidney Rigdon ordered that all of personal papers were to be burned at his death, and as far as we know, they were. All we have to go on is the word of some of Spalding's friends and family that he read parts of the manuscript to before he died. There are also logistical problems of how Sidney and Joseph met up before 1830. Yet, there is some evidence that suggests that the Spalding/Rigdon/Smith authorship might be the way the Book of Mormon was produced. We just don't know. The jury is still out. And this is coming from a person who believes the Book of Mormon is a fraud. It would be nice to have conclusive evidence to wrap this thing up, but we don't, yet.

However, we do have conclusive evidence against the Book of Abraham that no future discovery could overturn. It is the smoking gun that shows Mormonism cannot be true.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,883,106 times
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I don't claim to know who or how the BoM was written. But, there is one point of confusion about the Spalding-Rigdon theory that has been exacerbated by most who have written on the subject, both anti and apologist alike. It is very important that anyone looking into this topic understand what I am about to tell you as most everything that has been written on the Spalding-Rigdon theory, except for the most recent stuff, has focused on the wrong book.

I am borrowing generously from websites for which I will provide links to below. The following is from: The Spalding-Rigdon theory
The "Spalding-Rigdon theory" was first given wide publicity in 1834 with the publication of the book Mormonism Unvailed. In it, the author followed up on indications previously published in Ohio-based newspapers that a man named Solomon Spalding was the real (and unwitting) originator of the Book of Mormon.

To make an extremely long story very, very short, the theory goes that Solomon Spalding authored a work called "Manuscript Found" (not to be confused with "Manuscript Story"!)...Supposedly Sidney Rigdon, who actually lived nearby and would later become Joseph Smith's right-hand man, was acquainted with the publisher. Rigdon procured Spalding's manuscript, edited it by inserting a great deal of religious material, and later turned it over to Joseph Smith who then used it, and not any golden plates, as full or partial source material for the Book of Mormon.

The Spalding document described in Mormonism Unvailed was rediscovered in Hawaii in 1884, but it was shown to be far from the expected word-for-word parallel to the Book of Mormon, so the theory went into hiatus. The theory went into virtual moratorium in 1945 with the publication of Fawn M. Brodie's No Man Knows My History. Although considered by Mormons as an anti-Mormon book, she rejected the "Spalding-Rigdon theory" of Book of Mormon authorship due in part to her documentation of Rigdon's activities at the time which supposedly proved that Rigdon never met Joseph Smith until after the Book of Mormon was published. She had, however, imported this information wholesale from a pro-LDS source and had done little, if any, of her own research into the matter. There are also significant gaps in the chronology.

Although the Spalding-Rigdon theory was on the back burner for over half a century, in July 2005 the book Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? The Spalding Enigma hit the shelves. It contains a great amount of brand-new evidence and will very likely bring the Spalding-Rigdon controversy back to "front and center."

Many apologists love to show how "Manuscript Story" does not have much in common with the BoM and does not contain BoM names as many witnesses had attested that a manuscript of Spalding's did. And many proponents of the Spalding-Rigdon theory have demonstrated the many parallels exist in wording between "Manuscript Story" and the BoM. But, the evidence suggests that there were two books that Spalding wrote, one entitled "Manuscript Found" about Hebrews who sailed to America, and another earlier book entitled "Manuscript Story: Conneaut Creek" about a small group of Romans who were blown off course and landed in America. To add to the confusion the RLDS published the Hawaiian copy of "Manuscript Story" under the name of "Manuscript Found" apparently because they believed the book they had was the same one that the affidavits spoke of. One cannot entirely blame them because the confusion appears to have started in "Mormonism Unveiled".

Apparently a man by the name of Hurlbut collected several affidavits from individuals who knew Spalding and had heard him read parts of "Manuscript Found" to them. They claimed that there were many similarities between Spalding's book and the Book of Mormon except that the BoM had many scriptural teachings which were not in Spalding's book. E. D. Howe, the author of "Mormonism Unveiled" heard of these affidavits and went to Spalding's relatives to see if the claims in the affidavits were true (Solomon Spalding was dead). Howe ended up leaving the Spalding household with "Manuscript Story" thinking he had found what he was looking for. But, upon examining it found that it did not bear the strong resemblance to the BoM he was expecting. His copy was lost after he died and then found in Hawaii. The RLDS church correctly believed that it was the same manuscript Howe had, but incorrectly believed as Howe had that it was the one that was referred to in the affidavits. The RLDS wanted to show that the BoM was not a fraud and was not similar to the Spalding book, so they published the copy of "Manuscript Story" they had as "Manuscript Found".

A daughter of Spalding said that "Manuscript Story: Conneaut Creek" was not the same as "Manuscript Found" (http://www.mormonstudies.com/matilda1.htm (broken link)):
In her 1880 statement, Mrs. McKinstry stated that after Solomon died in 1816, his writings were stored in a trunk: "I perfectly remember the appearance of this trunk, and of looking at its contents. There were sermons and other papers, and I saw a manuscript, about an inch thick, closely written, tied with some of the stories my father had written for me, one of which he called, 'The Frogs of Wyndham.' On the outside of this manuscript were written the words, 'Manuscript Found.' I did not read it, but looked through it and had it in my hands many times, and saw the names I had heard at Conneaut, when my father read it to his friends. I was about eleven years of age at this time" (Cowdrey et al. 1977, 52-53)

Matilda was also just as clear about the fact that her father's manuscript, which contained the names Mormon, Maroni, Lamenite, and Nephi, bore the title "Manuscript Found," not "Manuscript Story." In a letter to James Fairchild dated 18 February 1886, A. B. Deming wrote: "I was in Washington D.C. 10 days Dec. and Jan. and gave Spaulding's daughter L. L. Rice's Story as Pub[lished] at Lamoni. She says it is not Manuscript Found." This was confirmed by Matilda in a letter to Deming in November 1886: "I have read much of the Manuscript Story Conneaut Creek which you sent me. I know that it is not the Manuscript Found which contained the words 'Nephi, Mormon, Maroni, and Laminites.' Do the Mormons expect to deceive the public by leaving off the title page - Conneaut Creek - and calling it Manuscript Found and Manuscript Story?" (See Cowdrey et al. 1977, 157-58.)

These letters written by A. B. Deming and Mrs. McKinstry assume even more significance when compared to another letter dated 25 January 1886 from Redick McKee to Deming. McKee's letter begins with this sentence: "When in this city a few days ago, you informed me that you were en route to Pittsburg, Washington County, &c, to collect some additional testimony about the origin of the Mormon Bible for a book you were intending to publish on this subject, that you had seen old Mrs. McKinstry - the daughter of Solomon Spaulding - and obtained a statement of her recollections and now called to request a similar statement from me, to include incidents of my early and later life, leading to my present matured opinion about Mormonism." After relating what he knew of Solomon Spalding while living at Spalding's public house in Amity between 1814 and 1816, McKee provided this information:

But touching these I will give below his daughter's (Mrs. McKinstry's) recollections, recently narrated by her to me, which I think more full and explanatory than my own. This lady is still residing in Washington, D.C., with the family of her late son-in-law, Col. Seaton of the Census Bureau, in remarkably good health for a lady of her age. She corroborated her father's statement about his removal to Conneaut in 1809, his examining the Indian mounds &c, and distinctly recollected that he wrote two or more stories in support of the theory that the Indians of North America were lineal descendants of the Jews from Palestine. In the first of these he brought the Jews from Palestine to America via Italy during the reign of Constantine, and set forth that at Rome they engaged shipping to convey them to some place in Great Britain, but encountered stormy weather and were finally wrecked somewhere on the coast of New England. What became of the manuscript of this story she did not know with certainty but understood that it was published in some Eastern review or magazine.

This romance he afterwards abandoned and set about writing a more probable story founded on the history of the ten lost tribes of Israel. She thought her father must have had wonderful powers of imagination and memory, great command of language and facility of description. Many of his descriptions were of a historical and religious character. Others were grotesque and ludicrous in the extreme.

She remembered that in one of them, touching the mode of warfare in that day, (being hand to hand or man to man) he represented one of the parties having streaks of red paint upon their cheeks and foreheads to distinguish them from enemies in battle. The story he called "The Manuscript Found." It purported to give a history of the ten tribes, their disputes and dissentions concerning the religion of their fathers, their division into two parties; one called Nephites the other Lamanites; their bloody wars, followed by reunion and migration via the Red Sea to the Pacific Ocean; their residence for a long time in China; their crossing the ocean by Behrings Straits in North America, thus becoming the progenitors of the Indians who have inhabited or now live in this continent. This was the story which her uncle John, Mr. Lake, Mr. Miller and other neighbors heard him read at Conneaut on different occasions. (Cowdrey et al. 2000, 798-99)

You can read "Manuscript Story" which was incorrectly published as "Manuscript Found" here.

To read the statements made by those who heard Solomon Spalding's "Manuscript Found" look here: E. D. Howe's Mormonism Unvailed, Part 5 of 5)

In addition to reading all of the above links, please be sure to read: http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm and Tracking Book of Mormon Authorship

There was also a recent word-print study done comparing the writing styles found in the Book of Mormon to those of proposed authors.
Jockers, Witten & Criddle. "Reassessing Authorship of the Book of Mormon". Literary and Linguistic Computing 23:4 (Dec. 2008) 465-491.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,502,137 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
At the time the Book of Mormon was translated, King James English was considered to be the language of scripture. There weren't the many "modern" English versions of the Bible that we have today. Joseph simply used the language that, to him (and probably most people of his day) seemed appropriate for sacred text. He could have translated the words into a more contemporary language, but chose not to.
This is an interesting idea, can you substantiate it?
Can you give us any evidence that Joseph Smith did this?
The problem for me is that it is only a poor approximation of 16th century English, the style of the King James is poetic and a beauty to read. The Book of Mormon text is wordy and cumbersome. The constant unecessary repitition of "and it came to pass" detracts from the text.
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