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I'm surprised by the silence surrounding these latest bits of news. What does everyone think? As an outsider, I think it's a mostly decent proposal. But I'd be interested to hear a local perspective.
As an outsider, I'd rather have it in Providence. Pawtucket is drive there, park, watch the game, walk back to the car, exit Pawtucket as quickly as possible. That's how I use Gillette. It's not how I use Fenway or the Garden where I tend to combine it with other city things.
The downtown Pawtucket-RI stadium now appears as if it might be a go. The main obstacle to it, RI House Speaker Mattiello, has come out publicly in support of a revamped bill. The Pawtucket mayor and city council, RI Governor, and RI Senate had already endorsed the stadium. The speaker, which sometimes is referred to as the most important person in RI (controls all the bills that come up), was the last person standing in the way of needed state legislation.
The proposed $83-million cost of the stadium (not including borrowing expenses) would be financed with the team contributing up to $45 million, the state $23 million and Pawtucket $15 million. The planned site is along the Blackstone River bordering Route 95 in downtown Pawtucket (site of the former Apex). It would be less than a mile from their longtime home at McCoy Stadium.
Overall season attendance has fallen off a good bit in the last few years. It is well documented. I however do not agree with ownership that it has anything to do with the stadium. There are many other contributing factors which account for the decline. Unfortunately, a new stadium is still needed. Why? Because if one is not built, the team will most certainly leave. You can also forget about getting a replacement team if the Paw Sox left town. There are rules in pro baseball about geographic exclusions. A team in Worcester would mean no A, AA, or AAA team could start operations at McCoy. The only teams that could go there would be collegiate type teams (such as what Worcester now has) which would be a very poor draw.
Overall season attendance has fallen off a good bit in the last few years. It is well documented. I however do not agree with ownership that it has anything to do with the stadium. There are many other contributing factors which account for the decline.
Absolutely, but Pawtucket was tops or close to tops in the league for attendance throughout the mid-2000s, and that was without a new stadium. And this year overall hasn't been great; until the past few games have bumped up the average, it was sub-4,000. But that happens when the temperature is consistently dipping below 60 degrees around the time of the first pitch.
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Unfortunately, a new stadium is still needed. Why? Because if one is not built, the team will most certainly leave.
The team will only leave if someone gives them the handout they're looking for. Even with Lucchino talking to Worcester, that's not a given. The Mayor of Hartford has already said the Yard Goats stadium will never pay for itself. That should speak volumes.
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You can also forget about getting a replacement team if the Paw Sox left town. There are rules in pro baseball about geographic exclusions. A team in Worcester would mean no A, AA, or AAA team could start operations at McCoy. The only teams that could go there would be collegiate type teams (such as what Worcester now has) which would be a very poor draw.
I can't find any reference to a threshold (the closest AAA teams are only 74 miles apart), but it wouldn't be the end of the world. The Bravehearts have already said they couldn't coexist with a AAA team in Worcester. They draw close to 3,000 a game - not huge, but respectable - and would be a logical fill in at McCoy if the PawSox do leave. No, we wouldn't have major league stars on rehab assignments in Pawtucket, but we would still have a fun night out with the family, which is preferable to what the PawSox ownership's apparent vision for the team is.
Overall season attendance has fallen off a good bit in the last few years. It is well documented. I however do not agree with ownership that it has anything to do with the stadium. There are many other contributing factors which account for the decline. Unfortunately, a new stadium is still needed. Why? Because if one is not built, the team will most certainly leave. You can also forget about getting a replacement team if the Paw Sox left town. There are rules in pro baseball about geographic exclusions. A team in Worcester would mean no A, AA, or AAA team could start operations at McCoy. The only teams that could go there would be collegiate type teams (such as what Worcester now has) which would be a very poor draw.
I do think the stadium (the location, really) is part of the problem. It's serviceable for people who want to simply drive to the stadium, go to the game, then go home. But that's not something you want to hang your hat on, and it's certainly not the approach that successful teams/franchises are taking nowadays. Successful stadiums offer experiences beyond just sitting and watching the game. Sure, the purist can still do that if they want to; but new stadiums typically offer better amenities (food/drink/activities), location, etc. Even stadiums that aren't downtown try to offer more to draw in traffic outside of the few hours of before/during/after the games (see: Patriot Place).
Furthermore, the average lifespan of a stadium is 42 years. McCoy is much older (built in 1942). It was last renovated almost 20 years ago. And comparisons to Wrigley and Fenway are asinine. Those two are outliers. They're classics/cathedrals. Their age and archaic/quirky construction is part of the experience. Furthermore, they're in excellent locations that add to the experience. Most old stadiums just feel old. McCoy is in that boat. It's adequate at best. And adequate isn't good enough for one of baseball's premier franchises. It isn't quite as awful as the Oakland Coliseum, but that's probably the closest comparison in MLB. It's a dated, unremarkable stadium in an out of the way corner of a metropolitan area's second, far less notable city. There's no reason to be in that area other than a game, and even the game experience isn't wonderful. The best thing about McCoy is the prices and as long as those remain comparable and the experience improves, you'll undoubtedly see attendance jump. McCoy isn't an embarrassment and it's not crumbling, but it's certainly not good enough at this point.
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Originally Posted by mp775
Absolutely, but Pawtucket was tops or close to tops in the league for attendance throughout the mid-2000s, and that was without a new stadium. And this year overall hasn't been great; until the past few games have bumped up the average, it was sub-4,000. But that happens when the temperature is consistently dipping below 60 degrees around the time of the first pitch.
It was largely due to the success of the parent club (that was peak attendance for Fenway too - when we were paying +/- $100 for grandstand seats), but McCoy was renovated significantly in 1999, so that definitely helped too.
And Ben Mondor also leveraged a move to Worcester at the time to get the State to pay for the renovations
Of course, the Worcester site isn't downtown, either. It's in a residential/industrial area similar to McCoy, except there are some restaurants around Kelley Square. There's no reason Pawtucket and/or the State could spend tens of millions of dollars to relocate warehouses along Delta Drive to Narragansett Park and build Lansdowne Street there, instead of pitching an ill-advised downtown ballpark.
I don't buy the location argument against McCoy. It's less than a mile from the Apex site - not exactly far flung from downtown. It could be made transit accessible easily enough. I also don't buy the outdated stadium argument. Particularly in the minors, I haven't been to any new stadium that has been remarkable. I guess it would be easier to not have to throw a milk jug on a rope over the wall to get players' autographs, but that's part of the fun of McCoy. Other than that, it has seats, concessions, and activities. I don't need a midway or a shopping mall in my stadium (even though McCoy has kids' games, space that could be used for retail, and even massage tables on the concourse already).
Of course, the Worcester site isn't downtown, either. It's in a residential/industrial area similar to McCoy, except there are some restaurants around Kelley Square.
If you're talking about the lot on Madison street, I'd tend to disagree. Kelley Square is more appealing as-is (and could be called up and coming as it's a focus of development in the area) as there are far more bars/restaurants already there. While I think it's irrelevant as nobody will make the walk, the Worcester site is closer to downtown than McCoy is - less than 10 minutes on foot. Downtown Worcester, by the way, is much more active/alive than downtown Pawtucket. Then there's the issue of vehicle access. Worcester's stadium sit is RIGHT off the highway (would be visible from the road). That's a big plus. But I still don't think the Worcester plan is great (and I don't think it'll happen) anyway.
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There's no reason Pawtucket and/or the State could spend tens of millions of dollars to relocate warehouses along Delta Drive to Narragansett Park and build Lansdowne Street there, instead of pitching an ill-advised downtown ballpark.
Why is the downtown park ill-advised? And there are a lot of reasons the state couldn't spend tens of millions to move warehouses - largely due to the staggering costs/minimal return and the interference with local businesses.
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I don't buy the location argument against McCoy. It's less than a mile from the Apex site - not exactly far flung from downtown. It could be made transit accessible easily enough.
Nobody, especially someone who isn't intimately familiar with the area, is going to walk a mile + to downtown Pawtucket from the stadium. If they have to get in their car to drive there, they're going to get right back on 95 and go somewhere with more to offer (or just go home). When you're talking about downtown benefiting from the stadium crowd and vice versa, 1 mile might as well be 100. If you make it "transit accessible" it better be more than a shuttle or RIPTA bus because no out of town fans are going to jump on a bus to get to downtown Pawtucket either. Frankly, I'm not sure how it makes more sense to reconfigure the neighborhood and add transit lines than to just build at the Apex site?
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I also don't buy the outdated stadium argument. Particularly in the minors, I haven't been to any new stadium that has been remarkable. I guess it would be easier to not have to throw a milk jug on a rope over the wall to get players' autographs, but that's part of the fun of McCoy. Other than that, it has seats, concessions, and activities. I don't need a midway or a shopping mall in my stadium (even though McCoy has kids' games, space that could be used for retail, and even massage tables on the concourse already).
It's not an issue whether you buy it or not (frankly, I love baseball and enjoy the game anywhere too, but we're not who they're trying to attract), but it is an issue for owners when attendance is declining and the park doesn't compare to newer parks. No, McCoy isn't crumbling. It's not awful by any stretch. But it's not as clean, comfortable and modern as the best minor league parks today. If you look at that list, they all have at least something going for them beyond simply hosting baseball games. Whether it's a fantastic downtown location, history, unique architectural elements, stunning views, or some over-the-top gimmick. McCoy has nothing like that. It's a mediocre stadium straddling a lower/middle income residential neighborhood and a warehouse district. It's not old enough to be historic in the way that Fenway, Wrigley, or even Cardines Field are. It's not updated enough to compete with modern parks. It's not well situated, and it doesn't have gimmicks. That's fine for the purists and the fans who just want a cheap ballgame. But if they want to boost numbers, they're not going to do it at McCoy.
It's a terrible use for a downtown, especially a small downtown like Pawtucket where it would dominate everything else. It's a large site that's only used 70 days a year (plus the odd non-baseball game, which McCoy also hosts). Even worse, it requires acres of surface or structured parking that's only used 70 days a year (the latest plan calls for the prime riverfront land between Division Street and Festival Pier to be surface parking). I-95 gets a beautiful stadium frontage, while Main Street gets the blank rear end of a faux Green Monster.
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And there are a lot of reasons the state couldn't spend tens of millions to move warehouses - largely due to the staggering costs/minimal return and the interference with local businesses.
The return is a new retail and entertainment district. How is that minimal?
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Nobody, especially someone who isn't intimately familiar with the area, is going to walk a mile + to downtown Pawtucket from the stadium. If they have to get in their car to drive there, they're going to get right back on 95 and go somewhere with more to offer (or just go home). When you're talking about downtown benefiting from the stadium crowd and vice versa, 1 mile might as well be 100. If you make it "transit accessible" it better be more than a shuttle or RIPTA bus because no out of town fans are going to jump on a bus to get to downtown Pawtucket either.
And no out of town fans are going to jump on a bus to a stadium at the Apex site, either, and the new Commuter Rail station isn't close enough to be walkable and won't be scheduled around game times. No advantage to downtown over McCoy.
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It's not an issue whether you buy it or not (frankly, I love baseball and enjoy the game anywhere too, but we're not who they're trying to attract), but it is an issue for owners when attendance is declining and the park doesn't compare to newer parks. No, McCoy isn't crumbling. It's not awful by any stretch. But it's not as clean, comfortable and modern as the best minor league parks today. If you look at that list, they all have at least something going for them beyond simply hosting baseball games. Whether it's a fantastic downtown location, history, unique architectural elements, stunning views, or some over-the-top gimmick. McCoy has nothing like that. It's a mediocre stadium straddling a lower/middle income residential neighborhood and a warehouse district. It's not old enough to be historic in the way that Fenway, Wrigley, or even Cardines Field are. It's not updated enough to compete with modern parks. It's not well situated, and it doesn't have gimmicks. That's fine for the purists and the fans who just want a cheap ballgame.
They have gimmicks, and it doesn't take a new stadium to have gimmicks. There is certainly history. The proposed park has nothing unique - it's proposed to be a mini-Fenway, just like Portland, Greenville, and Fort Myers.
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But if they want to boost numbers, they're not going to do it at McCoy.
At the risk of repeating myself,
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