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I'm talking about the state paying top dollar to keep these guys around. The ticket prices??? Ya, they are cheap for a reason bro......nobody and I mean NOBODY would pay top dollar to see minor leaguers play. That's my point. Why bend over backwards for these guys?
As for the Boston players having played in pawtucket for a cup of coffee.....who gives a ****? We need to pay to keep them here for that? I don't need my taxes going up just so I can tell Sully or Murph at the bar that I saw Roggggahhh Clemens hurl the ball or Trot Nixon spit out his tabacco juice on a summer night in the Bucket. Give me a break.
Dude, it's a minor league team who has to bully a poorly run state into getting a deal that no smart town/state would offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by independent man
This is a masterful articulation of the PawSox situation. And, the last sentence absolutely says it all!
Sorry, I thought it was obvious enough that an explanation wasn't necessary.
The Dunkin Donuts Center deal is more in line with the Convention Center deal. In this discussion, though, it serves as nothing more than a red herring.
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
3,799 posts, read 2,698,580 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by redplum33
The state gets over $2 million a year in taxes from the Pawsox.
If the Pawsox leave RI, the state gets nothing. That's essentially a $2+ million loss per year for the state, but the state isn't going to take a loss. How do you think they will make up for that $2+ million per year that they are accustomed to receiving? It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
If the Pawsox stay in RI and the Apex plan goes forward, the state (along with Pawtucket) puts up $38 million and continues to receive $2+ million a year in taxes. The plan includes a guarantee that the Pawsox will remain in Pawtucket until at least 2050.
So let's do the math...
Again, the state is accustomed to receiving $2+ million per year from the Pawsox. Let's call it an even 2 million and let's assume 30 years.
Pawsox leave -- RI taxpayers will be expected to come up with $60 million (30 years x $2 million per year tax loss).
Pawsox stay -- RI taxpayers will be expected to come up with $38 million for the initial investment (tax gains offset tax losses)
It's more complicated than that, but that gives you a general idea.
And keep in mind that the new ballpark and nearby businesses may generate enough additional tax revenue for the state to offset the $38 million initial investment over the course of 30 years. Maybe more. Just about everything Lucchino touches turns to gold.
Bottom line: your taxes are definitely going up if the Pawsox leave. If the Pawsox stay, your taxes may or may not go up.
I don't think that your math, or argument, is correct. I believe that the way the math works is that the tax money the state presently receives from the Paw Sox organization will go to paying back the state's bond. So, the state won't see that money in the general fund either way.
Check for yourself, but that's the way I heard Mattiello explain it. He argued, if we don't do the deal, we don't have the tax money, so let's use that money to pay the state's bond for the stadium.
ETA: as far as Lucchino turning things to gold, I believe that is true for the ownership groups, but not necessarily so for the city where the clubs are sited. Admittedly I base this opinion only on the Boston Red Sox. Yes, the Red Sox have been wildly successful (though the bulk of the work putting together the 2004 pieces were done by Dan Duquette under the previous ownership, and winning certainly fueled the fan frenzy). But I know many people who think the fan experience at Fenway has gone downhill, myself included. Yeah, they have more food options and craft beer. They went up scale. Is that really what we need in Pawtucket for a minor league, family friendly experience? I don't think so.
I will make three trips to Fenway this year with friends because it is something of a tradition for us, but I would rather go to McCoy instead, before Lucchino and co. ruin the Paw Sox too.
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
3,799 posts, read 2,698,580 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by redplum33
Sorry, I thought it was obvious enough that an explanation wasn't necessary.
The Dunkin Donuts Center deal is more in line with the Convention Center deal. In this discussion, though, it serves as nothing more than a red herring.
Missed this post. Humor me, because it's not obvious to me. What is your explanation?
The state gets over $2 million a year in taxes from the Pawsox.
If the Pawsox leave RI, the state gets nothing. That's essentially a $2+ million loss per year for the state, but the state isn't going to take a loss. How do you think they will make up for that $2+ million per year that they are accustomed to receiving? It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
If the Pawsox stay in RI and the Apex plan goes forward, the state (along with Pawtucket) puts up $38 million and continues to receive $2+ million a year in taxes. The plan includes a guarantee that the Pawsox will remain in Pawtucket until at least 2050.
So let's do the math...
Again, the state is accustomed to receiving $2+ million per year from the Pawsox. Let's call it an even 2 million and let's assume 30 years.
Pawsox leave -- RI taxpayers will be expected to come up with $60 million (30 years x $2 million per year tax loss).
Pawsox stay -- RI taxpayers will be expected to come up with $38 million for the initial investment (tax gains offset tax losses)
It's more complicated than that, but that gives you a general idea.
And keep in mind that the new ballpark and nearby businesses may generate enough additional tax revenue for the state to offset the $38 million initial investment over the course of 30 years. Maybe more. Just about everything Lucchino touches turns to gold.
Bottom line: your taxes are definitely going up if the Pawsox leave. If the Pawsox stay, your taxes may or may not go up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ormari
I don't think that your math, or argument, is correct. I believe that the way the math works is that the tax money the state presently receives from the Paw Sox organization will go to paying back the state's bond. So, the state won't see that money in the general fund either way.
Check for yourself, but that's the way I heard Mattiello explain it. He argued, if we don't do the deal, we don't have the tax money, so let's use that money to pay the state's bond for the stadium.
ETA: as far as Lucchino turning things to gold, I believe that is true for the ownership groups, but not necessarily so for the city where the clubs are sited. Admittedly I base this opinion only on the Boston Red Sox. Yes, the Red Sox have been wildly successful (though the bulk of the work putting together the 2004 pieces were done by Dan Duquette under the previous ownership, and winning certainly fueled the fan frenzy). But I know many people who think the fan experience at Fenway has gone downhill, myself included. Yeah, they have more food options and craft beer. They went up scale. Is that really what we need in Pawtucket for a minor league, family friendly experience? I don't think so.
I will make three trips to Fenway this year with friends because it is something of a tradition for us, but I would rather go to McCoy instead, before Lucchino and co. ruin the Paw Sox too.
It all works out exactly the same. Think about it.
Whether the Pawsox stay or leave, the state will continue to want the 2+ million per year (in the general fund) that they've been receiving from the Pawsox.
If they stay, an additional $38 million needs to come from somewhere.
It doesn't matter who pays back the bond or who puts the money in the general fund. The numbers are the same.
Some connected people in Worcester feel the PawSox are close to making the move to their city. If that happens, it is all on Mattiello and the RI House. They dragged their feet for too long.
Some connected people in Worcester feel the PawSox are close to making the move to their city. If that happens, it is all on Mattiello and the RI House. They dragged their feet for too long.
Source: Worcester's Offer to @PawSox 'Substantially Better' than What Pawtucket Can Offer, Could Save Owners 'Tens of Millions' https://twitter.com/thisweekinWoo/st...52871398096896
Source: Worcester’s Offer to Pawsox ‘Substantially Better’ than Pawtucket
New Worcester stadium at $75 million — with Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the City of Worcester responsible for nearly ¾ of the cost of construction [nearly $60 million] and the PawSox ownership group will be responsible for the remainder [roughly $15 million].
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