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...those intolerant of such superficial diversity (fashion, imagination, etc..) makes me wonder how they face diversity that is more deeply ingrained (ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc..)
In either case it is just prejudice if one thinks it. As soon as one opens their mouth and makes derogatory (or even negative) comments based on someone else's differences it becomes discrimination. As soon as they do it in front of their children it becomes a legacy. Not that I am accusing anyone here of doing that, I have no clue how anyone is here with their children, but just food for thought that some should be mindful of what they say out loud.
I'm sorry but if a kid comes over to my house with a tail and chains and tells me they are half wolf and only half human I will be intolerant. My right as a parent. To each his own.......
Exactly, I agree. Although bullying is obviously wrong and should be punished as harassment (just in case my stance is mistaken again), everyone has a right to decide they don't want to interact with someone based on their behavior.
To try to claim that people may not disapprove of behaviors they don't like is getting into thought-crime territory. Although some may not agree, I believe parents have a right to pass down their values to their children, including values that lead to the conclusion that claiming to be half-wolf and wearing a tail is not acceptable behavior at school. Any society that outlaws certain ideas or values is not free, there's a reason we have freedom of speech.
No way would I let my kid hang around someone who says "I might hurt a human". I do not condone anyone bullying them at all however. I just choose not to associate with it.
As for the bullying, and back to topic, I know the mom said there was bullying but DID she notify the school?
Both of the two children sadly seemed to have difficult situations going on at home.
I think it's an insult to compare racism or religious intolerance to not accepting odd behavior. People are born a certain race or ethnicity, with a certain sexual orientation, or usually stay in a religion they were raised in. No one raised these kids to believe they are part wolf and they certainly weren't born that way. This is something just made up. There are societal norms for a reason and certain behaviors people in general do not tolerate. Teen werewolves are not a federally protected group and never will be. This is just a fad that will be gone in a couple of years. It's one thing to dress a certain way or listen to a certain genre of music, but seriously putting into your mind that you are part wolf is just beyond ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being born black, white, Asian, or mixed-race; but try passing a psych exam for a job by saying you're part wolf. Any psychiatrist would deem you mentally unstable and unfit for the job. Mind you, I am not justifying the bullying.
Wolfie Blackheart was brought up because someone said she should be investigated; I said I don't believe she did anything wrong and she's already under investigation. She is the alpha-dog or whatever and teen werewolves everywhere look up to her. She has several dedication videos on YouTube.
Merovee, you are being hypocritical when you chastise people for even considering that the parents might have been a factor in the suicides (which was partially suggested with the girl), but you go on to blame the parents of bullies for their intolerance when you know absolutely nothing about the parents of those bullies.
Merovee: Part of their style obviously is a form of escapism. This type of escapism through fantasy is also more common among whites and Hispanics. Perhaps this is part of the reason why this all seems so unfamiliar to some.
Lu: Escapism. Exactly. I do sense that that is what it is, I agree. I once read somewhere something that just seems so timeless regodless of decade: "Young people just one day realized that the world was a rotten place.".....of course, I think I was reading about Hippies in the 1960s?
M: I also keep hearing about the parents failing their children. Some just want nothing better to do than blame the parents. One had their light cut off, the other said she did not feel safe going home, we do not know the full reasons so we should not assume anything. We do know one of the kids was bullied.
We also know some parents do fail, other parents, the kind who look at this kids and cast disapproval because they look different, who shake their head and claim they do not know what to make out of it but whatever they do eventually make out of it is nothing good, or who would not approve of their own kids if they appeared dressed like this suddenly at the dinner table, that is if family meals are still on the agenda....you see it is attitudes like this that are passed down to their kids causing the problem of intolerance that we have which has become endemic and is a primary source of suicide...yes bullying.
L: To be fair, I myself have certainly seen and studied so many different kinds of parents on this one singular planet, yes: but an ex-boss of mine; she was a mother, once said : "Sometimes, it is hard for parent to admit when they are wrong.".....so yeah sure, sometimes parents make mistakes, I have noticed.....
M: Who else would these type of parents not approve of? Someone of the wrong skin color? Someone of the wrong socio-economic status? Someone who is of the wrong sexual orientation? No, no, none of those are acceptable to be friends for their kids is it?
L: I wasn't born yesterday either. Right or wrong, I have seen enough of that too here and there over the years.....
M: Blame who you wish though but if you wish to insure less incidents like this occur it begins with tolerance and accepting those who look different. I guess instead of doing stock inventory of our own prejudices and forms of discrimination it is just easier to blame the parents though of the suicide victims.
L: Oh, I guess we all could always use some nonstop daily self-improvement.....
M: Somewhere out there it is almost guaranteed there were bullies in all of this and they need to be reported, discovered, expelled, and given counseling for starters. Then their parents need to change the way they think as well because such attitudes are usually passed down.
L: Imperfect-Me does indeed agree with you about that; so often it does indeed seem to be the case, methinks. I too have also had my own sociological observations in my own Life's Experience.......
I think it's an insult to compare racism or religious intolerance to not accepting odd behavior. People are born a certain race or ethnicity, with a certain sexual orientation, or usually stay in a religion they were raised in. No one raised these kids to believe they are part wolf and they certainly weren't born that way. This is something just made up. There are societal norms for a reason and certain behaviors people in general do not tolerate. Teen werewolves are not a federally protected group and never will be. This is just a fad that will be gone in a couple of years. It's one thing to dress a certain way or listen to a certain genre of music, but seriously putting into your mind that you are part wolf is just beyond ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being born black, white, Asian, or mixed-race; but try passing a psych exam for a job by saying you're part wolf. Any psychiatrist would deem you mentally unstable and unfit for the job. Mind you, I am not justifying the bullying.
Not sure why the fantasy part causes you to label someone else as mentally ill. Are you a psychologist who can make such a diagnosis based on a news article? Do you frequently go around blanket labelling others as mentally unstable and unfit to work because there are some parts of a group you do not understand? Now you claim it is not wrong to be black, white, etc.. but go on to label their form fantasy as wrong? You did imply this.
FYI there are plenty of people who pretend, imagine, fantasize, roleplay and nothing is wrong with them as far as being productive citizens.
There is nothing wrong with alternative fashions either especially if one is a teen when such experimention is considered a natural part of growing up. Also as long as teens have been experimenting with alternative fashions there have been bullies who usually make deragatory comments based on the sexuality or mental condition of the victim (mentally unstable and unfit for the job you said? As if they would go apply to one with a tail on). Freak is also another favored term by bullies.
Bullying is abuse. It is detrimental to ones well being. If one believes it does not warrant criminal prosecution because the victim of the bullies are not within a constitutionally protected minority group then that just does not seem right. That is like saying internet harrassment or stalking is OK as long as the victim is not a minority. I think political correctness makes some people's logic a bit off.
I still contend bullying is an issue of intolerance, of the strong harming the weak, and it does not take a federal hate crime statute to know it.
I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have had to take psychology, criminal psychology, and sociology courses for my major. I have also had to take 2 psychological tests in the past for employment and know what failed the people who took the test with me. One guy was disqualified from employment because he made grandiose statements. I did not say these kids are mentally unstable, I said their claims would not fly with a psychiatrist testing for mental fitness for certain jobs. Is there something wrong with them believing they are part wolf? Um....yes because they aren't part wolf. I'm black. If I went around saying I'm Caucasian, would you hire me? Would you think it's okay and completely normal for me to think that? Fantasizing, imagining, and roleplaying are not the same as believing. This didn't come from an article, this came right out of their mouths. I actually took the time to watch the videos that they made and uploaded on YouTube.
What qualifies you to say that these bullies need to go to counseling and that their parents need to change their ways? Again, you know absolutely nothing about the bullies or where they picked up their behavior.
I did not say that bullying does not warrant criminal prosecution. I was making a point that you cannot compare racism, ageism, sexism, or any of the other prejudices toward federally protected groups to people not agreeing with someone's lifestyle. The bullies can possibly be brought up on harassment charges, but this is not a hate crime or even considered discrimination under the law. Discrimination is the exclusion or the restriction of a group (the group has to fit in a class or category which there is none for personal fashion choices) from opportunities that are available to another group. Obviously this includes things like employment, education, government assistance, etc.; not social groups. We have the freedom to associate or not associate with whomever. You can't ask someone to change their gender, their sexuality, their age, or their race and it would be quite unreasonable to ask someone to change their religion. But you can ask someone to change their clothes in order to follow a certain dress code at school, work, etc. So it is a major stretch for you to say that those who do not want those kinds of kids to be friends with their children are probably also intolerant of race, different religions, socioeconomic status, etc.
Last edited by L210; 10-04-2010 at 03:08 AM..
Reason: .
I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have had to take psychology, criminal psychology, and sociology courses for my major. I have also had to take 2 psychological tests in the past for employment and know what failed the people who took the test with me. I did not say these kids are mentally unstable, I said their claims would not fly with a psychiatrist testing for mental fitness for certain jobs.
So you took a sociology course but failed to learn the sociological definition of 'discrimination'? It is not just a legal term that applies to certain groups.
I suppose racial discrimination was OK or non-existent during the era when no laws defined it? On the other hand were Jim Crow laws OK when they legally codified racism? No, I think we do not necessarily need a federal law to know what is right or wrong at times.
Also you repeat this claim of 'their claims would not fly with a psychiatrist testing for mental fitness for certain jobs'. It still reads to me as making disparaging remarks based on their appearance (which is lookism) and roleplaying. It also reads as 'mentally ill persons should not be allowed to work'. I know that is not what you posted exactly but it is such flippant comments that reveal society has a way to go when it comes to overcoming the stigma of mental illness.
It also seems segments of society, minority cultures especially, treat mental illness as a greater stigma. I myself am Hispanic and see this quite well among my own culture.
If the logic is their roleplay makes them mentally ill and mentally ill is a negative thing and they most likely are not fit to work then this is the kind of logic that is the genesis of employment discrimination and discrimination against the mentally ill.
Also I know you commented before regarding why focus on the bullying and not on the parents of the wolf pack members. Well we cannot know for certain how their homelife was, we can speculate, but we do know they were bullied. The mother said her son was. According to the other thread there were FB comments stating the girl was also a victim of bullying.
Since this issue is currently being explored by the media and is part of the national conversation now I am sure this angle will be further explored in our own local media. Change is due. My heart goes out to the two suicide victims and their friends and family.
This all reminds me of the Tempest Smith case. That too was also in part about how she chose to dress because some of the comments the bullies used focused on her style among other things.
An impotant question to me would be "Did the bullying begin pre-tail and fangs, or post-tail and fangs?" Not to "justify" the bullying but even one of the counselors admitted that when the students dressed in such a manner, it pretty much invited bullying.
Again, you are comparing race (something someone has no control over) to dress (something we have complete control over). There is good and bad behavior; there is not a good and bad race.
Psychological tests are given for certain positions. Do I think someone with a mental illness should have a job that requires carrying a gun? No, I do not. Someone who is not of sound mind cannot even get a CHL. You can't deny certain people have limits, that is why the government bans employment discrimination if a person can perform a job with 'reasonable accommodation.'
We know more about their home lives than we know about the bullies. CPS has documented certain situations; do we have any specifics on the bullying?
Interesting question, sapphire. Not that it justifies the bullying, but it would be interesting to know if the students dressed different because they really are different or do they make it a point to be different. I knew one boy in high school who seemed to do things to constantly draw attention like carve "satan" and "murder" into his arm on the school bus, say creepy things to his female classmates, and sing metal music loudly during lunch. Either he was really mentally unstable or he was just looking for attention. I have no shame in saying that I would not want my children hanging around a guy like him if I had any. But I don't think anyone would invite bullying to the point of driving themselves to suicide.
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