Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I will make an admission as to my stupidity; I had no idea what the hell any of you were talking about. But I saw this car on the way home today. Nice looking ride, sleek and badass.
If you don't understand the Elon Musk story you don't understand how cool Tesla Motors really is. Like I said - iPhone of cars... is the plastic and silicon in an iPhone any better than a top-of-the-line Samsung phone? Not really. But one has 10x the cachet. Teslas are that unique product that car guys and tech geeks can love. Totally unique and a category-breaker if ever there was one. Of course Bentleys and Porsches are 'better cars'. These things are 'different cars'. Very important distinction and proof the market is always going to surprise you.
If you don't understand the Elon Musk story you don't understand how cool Tesla Motors really is. Like I said - iPhone of cars... is the plastic and silicon in an iPhone any better than a top-of-the-line Samsung phone? Not really. But one has 10x the cachet. Teslas are that unique product that car guys and tech geeks can love. Totally unique and a category-breaker if ever there was one. Of course Bentleys and Porsches are 'better cars'. These things are 'different cars'. Very important distinction and proof the market is always going to surprise you.
EXACTLY! Elon Musk is a genius. I have friends that personally know Elon. I have other friends that have friends that worked with him at Paypal. Some say that he is an arrogant guy but one thing they ALL say is he is one of the smartest guys they ever met.
If you look what he is doing in the Space Exploration space (Space X), electric vehicle space (Tesla Motors), and solar space (Solar City) it's all quite exciting and inspiring to watch.
For those of you that say it's cheap plastic, test drive the thing. It's night and day from sitting in it in the showroom. Trust me. I was one of those guys like you that thought they were cool but wanted to wait a bit. Then I test drove it. I'd equate sitting in the car in the showroom floor as watching a porno. I'd say test driving it is like starring in one! LOL. Yes, that different!
And the iphone analogy is a good one. Much like users of iphones do NOT buy them because they are worried about if others will be impressed if they have one. They buy them because they are so cool to them and they love them. Tesla early adopters I'd say are the same type of breed that just love that technology. And their love is infectious. I recently met a guy from one of the Tesla forums and he didn't know me but he agreed to meet up with me and he took an hour showing me the car and sharing great contacts to get things for the car. You should have seen his love for the car.
So, what you're saying is, instead of increasing competition to allow more people to save more money, you rather remove competition so that we all will have to pay top dollar? You're giving the corporation too much credit for wanting to give you the lowest price. It's more likely that they'll all just charge you MSRP. Now, if you consider MSRP to be the lowest price, because that is the only price, then you're right. Everyone will get the lowest price. Based on the response here, it seems like most people here would rather have a single price, so you won't feel like you've been ripped off, even if that 1 price is the highest price (MSRP). Which would I guess become the new lowest price. I guess those of us who are in that 10% would have to find some other ways to save money. No wonder the savings rate in America suck so bad.
No, I am saying that if you don't like the one price policy Tesla has you don't have to buy a Tesla any more than you had to buy a Saturn who also had a one price policy. If you don't like it then take your happy butt down to the Toyota or Ford or VW dealer because they're not legally going to be able to change their distribution policies short of a bankruptcy.
Your original claim was that without dealerships there was NO COMPETITION and that's not only wrong it's retarded because, as I said, if you're unhappy with the one price at the Tesla dealership you can go to the dealerships for a dozen other brands. Nice attempt to avoid a perfectly easy to understand point though.
That said, removing legislative barriers to these sales models is a good thing. See the friction Ãœber is facing from entrenched taxi interests in Chicago, Los Angeles. It's just a
competition.
I see a lot of Teslas on the 101 in Silicon Valley every week. It's the iPhone of cars, that much is certain.
The highly over regulated Taxi business is another massive rent seeking arrangement in virtually every town and all it does it keep prices high, service low, and blocks potentional competition. It doesn't even deliver the promised improved quality either. Voice of San Diego had an excellent article last month about just how screwed up the taxi laws are here in San Diego (and we're not even close to being the worst in the country as most east coast cities are even worse) where we have the oldest taxi fleet in the country, the highest prices for customers, the lowest pay for drivers, and yet because the number of permits are kept artificially low & well below demand those permits get sold on the black market for up to $200,000 a pop. That's right the city sells them $100 and then the two major taxi companies in the city reselling them to drivers of cabs for up to $200,000.
If you get a chance read the article as it makes a great case as to why the current regulations need to go but never will because of how the entrenched special interests give big money to politicians and don't want to see the status quo change.
No, I am saying that if you don't like the one price policy Tesla has you don't have to buy a Tesla any more than you had to buy a Saturn who also had a one price policy. If you don't like it then take your happy butt down to the Toyota or Ford or VW dealer because they're not legally going to be able to change their distribution policies short of a bankruptcy.
Your original claim was that without dealerships there was NO COMPETITION and that's not only wrong it's retarded because, as I said, if you're unhappy with the one price at the Tesla dealership you can go to the dealerships for a dozen other brands. Nice attempt to avoid a perfectly easy to understand point though.
What if I really wanted a Model S? That's a pretty easy point to understand, no? So, you're telling me if I want a Model S because it's a superior car, I'd have to pay the price they want me to pay? Sound pretty retard to me.
Yes, my original claim is TRUE. If I want a Model S, w/out dealerships, there is NO COMPETITION. How hard is that to understand?
Just imagine if ALL of the manufacturers do this and there is no more dealership. For example, have you checked the based price of a Camry/Accord/Altima/Sonata/etc. lately? They're ALL starting at $21k. How's that for competition. W/ the currently system, if I want an Accord, I can probably negotiate below $21k. W/ no dealer system, I can take my happy butt over to Toyota and pay... $21k. Or I can take my happy but over to Huyndai and pay... $21k. Oh geeze, such great competition driving down prices.
No, your original claim is completely false and remains so. Just because there are not dealers does not mean there is no competition as the sector as a whole remains highly competitive with lots of options. Attempting to outlaw the entire business model simply because you don't like it is just another terrible rent seeking arrangement and an unwarranted intrusion by government into the private sector which does nothing but harm consumers by robbing them of even the option of a different choice. If you don't like Dell's one price policy then you're free to buy a Sony or an Apple or literally dozens of other brands so your claim that there is no competition remains completely false.
If you don't like their distribution policy then don't buy their brand; it's as simple as that because you DO have other options from competitors.
No, your original claim is completely false and remains so. Just because there are not dealers does not mean there is no competition as the sector as a whole remains highly competitive with lots of options. Attempting to outlaw the entire business model simply because you don't like it is just another terrible rent seeking arrangement and an unwarranted intrusion by government into the private sector which does nothing but harm consumers by robbing them of even the option of a different choice. If you don't like Dell's one price policy then you're free to buy a Sony or an Apple or literally dozens of other brands so your claim that there is no competition remains completely false.
If you don't like their distribution policy then don't buy their brand; it's as simple as that because you DO have other options from competitors.
Yep, it's as false as the $21k base price for most if not all of the midsize sedan in the market right now. Yep, there's a lot of competition driving down prices for the consumers there. FYI, I never said we should outlaw manufacturer direct to consumer sale.
Anyways, I concede. I agree w/ ER. The car buying process won't change anytime soon (thank goodness).
What if I really wanted a Model S? That's a pretty easy point to understand, no? So, you're telling me if I want a Model S because it's a superior car, I'd have to pay the price they want me to pay? Sound pretty retard to me.
Yes, my original claim is TRUE. If I want a Model S, w/out dealerships, there is NO COMPETITION. How hard is that to understand?
Just imagine if ALL of the manufacturers do this and there is no more dealership. For example, have you checked the based price of a Camry/Accord/Altima/Sonata/etc. lately? They're ALL starting at $21k. How's that for competition. W/ the currently system, if I want an Accord, I can probably negotiate below $21k. W/ no dealer system, I can take my happy butt over to Toyota and pay... $21k. Or I can take my happy but over to Huyndai and pay... $21k. Oh geeze, such great competition driving down prices.
Doc,
The biggest problem with your chain of thought is you are acting as if everything operates in a vacuum. An enclosed space where competition won't exist and that could be further from the truth. You are being too simplistic, IMHO about the whole idea.
You are also looking at it the wrong way. Again, if Tesla had the traditional model of car dealership instead of paying $116,000 I'd probably be paying $130,000 or more because their cost structure is high. Watch some of Musk's various videos out there on the traditional car sales model and why he wants to change it.
With your argument you're trying to say that competition would disappear, when in fact the exact opposite would happen. There would be increased competition. You are trying to say all the manufacturers would collude together to keep prices high. That's not only illegal but it just wouldn't happen due to competitive forces in the market.
OK...we can agree to disagree on that part of it. The traditional model isn't changing anytime soon which we both agree on.
Think4Yourself, I TOTALLY agree with you about the over-regulated taxi business space. You have people trying to bypass the traditional inefficient and expensive model via car sharing Apps and the first thing you typically see is cities try to ban them or make them illegal. But it will be almost impossible to totally get rid of these various apps/models. I love the disruption in the various industries out there and I'd love to see more of it in the future in bloated industries like real estate, auto sales, taxi, car rentals, etc.
Last edited by earlyretirement; 07-19-2013 at 06:51 AM..
The biggest problem with your chain of thought is you are acting as if everything operates in a vacuum. An enclosed space where competition won't exist and that could be further from the truth. You are being too simplistic, IMHO about the whole idea.
You are also looking at it the wrong way. Again, if Tesla had the traditional model of car dealership instead of paying $116,000 I'd probably be paying $130,000 or more because their cost structure is high. Watch some of Musk's various videos out there on the traditional car sales model and why he wants to change it.
With your argument you're trying to say that competition would disappear, when in fact the exact opposite would happen. There would be increased competition. You are trying to say all the manufacturers would collude together to keep prices high. That's not only illegal but it just wouldn't happen due to competitive forces in the market.
OK...we can agree to disagree on that part of it. The traditional model isn't changing anytime soon which we both agree on.
Think4Yourself, I TOTALLY agree with you about the over-regulated taxi business space. You have people trying to bypass the traditional inefficient and expensive model via car sharing Apps and the first thing you typically see is cities try to ban them or make them illegal. But it will be almost impossible to totally get rid of these various apps/models. I love the disruption in the various industries out there and I'd love to see more of it in the future in bloated industries like real estate, auto sales, taxi, car rentals, etc.
I'm not thinking it's operating in a vacuum. I'm just guess what would happen if the manufacturers can do what Tesla is doing. Just as you're guessing what would happen. Neither of us will know for sure until it happen. So, on this point, we can just wait and see.
As to your point about paying $130k for a $116k Tesla, if you have to buy it through a dealer. That's your assumption and my assumption is that I can get that $116k Tesla for $100k. Again, both of us are guessing here, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Now, if one of the traditional manufacturer switch to the Tesla model, then we'll know for sure who's right. Since we'll know what their price was before and after the change.
As to the increase or decrease competition point, again, we can agree to disagree here, since both of us are guess on what would happen. I'm not saying they'll be colluding to keep prices high. I'm just saying that we'll be paying MSRP. There's a difference. I'm not saying that if the model changed that somehow, we'll be paying $25k for a midsize sedan instead of $21k. I think they'll still keep the MSRP at $21k, but I can no longer get it for $19k (for example) like I do today. But that's also just a guess on what would happen.
So, it seems like, we can just agree to disagree on all points. If Tesla is successful in fending off the attacks from dealers, then we'll see if other manufacturers follow suite. If that happen, then we'll get to see exactly who's right.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
