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Old 12-12-2011, 09:14 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 6,892,444 times
Reputation: 2942

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Dude View Post
Individuals are responsible for their own actions, not a community. A community is made up of individuals and is not a cohesive unit that thinks, walks, talks, acts, on its own.

Suggesting that the black community "take" responsibility for an individuals actions is like suggesting whites take responsibility for child molesters and wallstreet crooks. Or suggesting Muslims take responsibility for jihadists, or mexican americans take responsibility for illegals, or asian americans for sex parlors.

It doesn't make sense and is quite rhetorical..

50 people protesting police is not some sort of voice for the black community any more than 50 klansmen demonstrating at a courthouse is for whites..

And along with that, even when you look at a "community" such as the Lower Bottoms (where this tragedy took place), there's multiple micro-communities within the Lower Bottoms that share little in common. The project residents in the neighborhood for example are generally on a completely different socioeconomic level than the people who rent/own houses, which are on a completely different socioeconomic level than the people who buy condos. On Wood Street for example, you literally have these three very different demographics right on top of each other. Do they form a cohesive community? Do they even see each other as neighbors, or do they only see people who are in the same sub-community as neighbors?

When you make a broad statement such as "the community should take responsibility for its actions", you're getting into very muddy water... which community are you talking about? The Campbell Village community? The Pacific Cannery Lofts community? The homeowners & renters community? All of them? It's difficult to define what the word "community" really means in a neighborhood like the Lower Bottoms, and especially when you bring race into the picture... it's not just a can of worms you're opening, it's the question of whether race or socio-economics is what we should be grouping communities by. The Lower Bottoms might be a mostly black neighborhood, but economically it is not homogenous at all. Is it really just the race of the family and the murderers we're talking about, or are we also talking about their background? Do we believe that none of this would have happened if we left the socioeconomics the same and merely flipped the race of the victims and perpetrators to something else?

I'm aware you (Natural510) lived in the Lower Bottoms in the 90's, which is why I'm wondering what exactly you mean by "a black community who largely refuses to take responsibility for its own actions." Do we now say the same when the perpetrators and victims are white? Asian? Latino? I don't see people out protesting in the streets when a Norteno aims at a Border Brother or vice versa and an innocent person gets killed either.

Skyline High School mourns death of student Eric Toscano, killed during birthday party | abc7news.com
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Police State
1,472 posts, read 1,232,823 times
Reputation: 1225
No, no it's really not. Look beyond the numbers, 90% of all the violent crime is in three districts. Unlike San Francisco, you can avoid bad neighborhoods in Oakland.

I can't believe people continue to perpetuate nonsense about Oakland's crime rate.
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Police State
1,472 posts, read 1,232,823 times
Reputation: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by rah View Post
^Yeah, that's sad.

And in SF:

18-year-old found shot to death in Bayview | Staff report | Crime | San Francisco Examiner

That's sad too, but i guess only Oakland is worthy of scorn for some reason?

More crap from SF , over the past few days:

-Man shot in leg, robbed of cellphone in San Francisco | Mike Aldax | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-Bandits rob Chinatown jewelry store | Rob Nagle | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-San Francisco police release description of 24th Street sex assault suspect | Ari Burack | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-Man slashed in face at Mission district bus stop | Rob Nagle | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-Man stabbed in armpit after requesting peace and quiet | Rob Nagle | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-Suspected BART copper thief arrested outside home | Andrea Koskey | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-San Francisco cop doesn
-Two arrested for gun possession, parole violation | Rob Nagle | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner
-Sixth MS-13 gang member sentenced to life in prison | Ari Burack | Law and Disorder | San Francisco Examiner

Where's the SF hate thread? Oh yeah, we've had them, but they're usually focused on hippies, or yuppies or complaints about girls or fashion, or "too many gays", or some crap. Gotta love how so many people base their criticism on stereotypes, whether it be for Oakland, or SF, or anywhere.
Post of the Year.
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:18 AM
 
Location: East Bay Area
1,709 posts, read 1,820,192 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Crime in Oakland isn't any different or unique than other high crime cities is one of my points, it belongs in the same tier and discussion as other high crime cities.
My point,

The reason why FBI crime statistics are so controversial, which is the reason why the FBI and criminologists caution readers-like you-to not rank cities by crime, is because its useless. It has no benefits whatsoever.

Crime rates differ far more within cities, than between them.

All it does is cause harm to cities like Oakland. You fear what you do not understand. You do not understand. Which brings me to my next point,

No one here is sensitive to the issue. We make strides to understand the issue, not just look at a fraudulent list and hypothesize something that is not even supported.

"That fellow seems to posses but one idea and that is the wrong one" - Samuel Johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
This is the San Francisco forum...
check mate!
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:39 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
10,407 posts, read 13,949,114 times
Reputation: 5571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1110 View Post
My point,

The reason why FBI crime statistics are so controversial, which is the reason why the FBI and criminologists caution readers-like you-to not rank cities by crime, is because its useless. It has no benefits whatsoever.

Crime rates differ far more within cities, than between them.

All it does is cause harm to cities like Oakland. You fear what you do not understand. You do not understand. Which brings me to my next point,

No one here is sensitive to the issue. We make strides to understand the issue, not just look at a fraudulent list and hypothesize something that is not even supported.
I really disagree, a fair amount of people on here are clearly sensitive to not only the issue crime in Oakland but really any criticism of the city. It's either Oakland is unique and different than those other high crime cities or it's Oakland is just like any other American city with crime. Yes some people will exaggerate and write right off the whole city because of its crime but on the opposite end you got people acting like it's your average american city when it comes to problems.

Yes crime rates will vary within larger cities a lot but that can be said of all large cities. Most people in here seem to already understand the issue that crime is not the same everywhere in Oakland. Yet that's always the same excuse people like you pull out to justify your sensitivity to criticisms of Oakland.
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Status: "ASOIAF - Book 5" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Ohio; originally Oakland, CA
6,009 posts, read 3,653,481 times
Reputation: 5182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
I'm aware you (Natural510) lived in the Lower Bottoms in the 90's, which is why I'm wondering what exactly you mean by "a black community who largely refuses to take responsibility for its own actions." Do we now say the same when the perpetrators and victims are white? Asian? Latino? I don't see people out protesting in the streets when a Norteno aims at a Border Brother or vice versa and an innocent person gets killed either.
It comes down to mothers and fathers taking responsibilities for their own actions, and passing down values of ethic and responsibility to their children. The cycle of blaming someone else for one's circumstances is deeply entrenched in the Oaktown mentality, legacy of the Panthers and other activism and such. Much of it begins with men being fathers to their children...like I said, can of worms.
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:07 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 6,892,444 times
Reputation: 2942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
It comes down to mothers and fathers taking responsibilities for their own actions, and passing down values of ethic and responsibility to their children. The cycle of blaming someone else for one's circumstances is deeply entrenched in the Oaktown mentality, legacy of the Panthers and other activism and such. Much of it begins with men being fathers to their children...like I said, can of worms.

I'm assuming you're saying this in the context of the father saying he ran with the wrong crowd but it wasn't his fault his son got shot. On one level, I agree with you. If he knew he was hanging with the wrong crowd, then he should have known not to bring his son with him when he was. On the other hand, he was being a father to his child. His mother nor his father actually blamed anybody. I disagree that this was a case of "blaming the system", I think it was more of a coping mechanism for the father... how many people would readily say "I take 100% responsibility for the death of my baby" when in reality the situation is quite a bit more complex.

Some of the blame does lay with him, but I haven't see him move the blame elsewhere either.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:48 AM
 
Location: East Bay Area
1,709 posts, read 1,820,192 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I really disagree, a fair amount of people on here are clearly sensitive to not only the issue crime in Oakland but really any criticism of the city. It's either Oakland is unique and different than those other high crime cities or it's Oakland is just like any other American city with crime. Yes some people will exaggerate and write right off the whole city because of its crime but on the opposite end you got people acting like it's your average american city when it comes to problems.
You have it all miscontrued. Let's clear it up.

- Threads in which the intention is to deride only Oakland for its crime. The goal of these threads are usuaully to hold the city in contempt, because of it's crime.

In this case, crime happens in all cities, especially in big cities. If the thread was innocently about crime itself, why single out one city? The obvious answer is pure hostility towards Oakland.

- Threads that compare crime in Oakland to crime in other cities, based on the incompletely analysis of the FBI crime statistics. Of course, for the purpose of choosing "most", "more", "3x more likely" dangerous cities.

In this case, crime in Oakland, or crime in every city is different. Crime rates differ far within cities, than between them. Thus, crime-risk factors in Oakland can differ from crime-risk factors in other cities. The FBI data was not meant to be used as a ranking or comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Yes crime rates will vary within larger cities a lot but that can be said of all large cities.
That's what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Most people in here seem to already understand the issue that crime is not the same everywhere in Oakland. Yet that's always the same excuse people like you pull out to justify your sensitivity to criticisms of Oakland.
I can be sensitive to ignorance.

If I may, I'll ask you a question.

Why are you so persistent in critizing Oakland?

In all, I feel as if people do not really care what you think, they just correct you when they feel like doing it. Saying "thank you" would be most appreciated.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:55 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 6,892,444 times
Reputation: 2942
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I really disagree, a fair amount of people on here are clearly sensitive to not only the issue crime in Oakland but really any criticism of the city. It's either Oakland is unique and different than those other high crime cities or it's Oakland is just like any other American city with crime. Yes some people will exaggerate and write right off the whole city because of its crime but on the opposite end you got people acting like it's your average american city when it comes to problems.

Yes crime rates will vary within larger cities a lot but that can be said of all large cities. Most people in here seem to already understand the issue that crime is not the same everywhere in Oakland. Yet that's always the same excuse people like you pull out to justify your sensitivity to criticisms of Oakland.

Now you're saying you believe that all high crime cities are the same? Do you really not see the ignorance in that statement?
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:02 AM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
7,770 posts, read 6,831,098 times
Reputation: 4763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1110 View Post
Why are you so persistent in critizing Oakland?
Old habits die hard. Especially regarding "Which city in the Bay Area should I pick on today?"
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