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Old 04-27-2012, 10:47 PM
 
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Are the topics back to being POC again?
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:29 AM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
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I must admit, lots of good information in here. One thing I have to wonder about, though: If the best location is one away from big cities, away from a likely traveling route between big cities, and at least two tanks of gas away from ANY big city, that pretty much rules out most of the USA. Even one tank of gas for my truck, at 50-55 mph, is 750 miles. If I had to live 750 miles from the nearest major population center, it would seem as though far-interior Alaska would be the only American location that might fit the bill.

Why would people flee the cities en masse anyway? After all, the only reason why anyone would WANT to live in a city is because they WANT to be near a bunch of other people. Those are the people who, in my opinion, have the "hive" mentality. You don't move to a densely-populated, traffic-congested, asphalt-jungle, noisy, expensive, highly regulated city unless you find some level of excitement or desirability in the notion of being around a whole bunch of people. If you want a job in the city but don't want to live in the city, you can live in the suburbs... which may still be fairly densely populated but nowhere near like living in the city. I have a feeling that when the SHTF, most people living in the city won't have the first clue what to do. Half of them won't even consider leaving the city because they'd have no idea how to survive without their big-city amenities... and even if they think they could survive, they wouldn't want to. They'd do what most other city dwellers do... they'd stick around and hope that things got better... preferably quickly. (After all, if most city dwellers DIDN'T think that way, the cities would be much less densely populated.)

Some of you mentioned getting permits and whatever, for a farm stand. I'd like to ask "are you kidding me?!" but in this day of intrusive government, it wouldn't surprise me. How about someone relate your story of trying to set up a little farm stand, to sell what you grow or raise on your homestead, so that you can make a few extra bucks from your land. Give me all of the ugly details... because at least in the realm of my imagination, it's something I've been considering doing.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
21,669 posts, read 27,655,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
... Some of you mentioned getting permits and whatever, for a farm stand. I'd like to ask "are you kidding me?!" but in this day of intrusive government, it wouldn't surprise me. How about someone relate your story of trying to set up a little farm stand, to sell what you grow or raise on your homestead, so that you can make a few extra bucks from your land. Give me all of the ugly details ... because at least in the realm of my imagination, it's something I've been considering doing.
As an organic farmer, I have been a vendor at Farmer's Markets, and I am currently a supplier to a Buyers Club. I know a lot of other vendors and I frequent other forums with like-minded folks.

There are states and cities that have been prosecuting farmers for having farm stands. Different places think differently. Sometimes it is 'zoning', other times it is 'permit fees', other times it may be 'health inspections', and lastly sometimes it is the Federal government [FDA] stepping in.

We see news articles about suburban folks who put in veggie gardens and get fined by their respective city for zoning violations.

Other places where it is the HOA [Home Owners Association] who puts a stop to it.

Some local government officials simply want you to ask for a license and pay a fee. Some towns around where I live are like that.

There are also other towns around me where the town has 'health inspectors'. Those guys will show up randomly, inspect and issue fines. [A crate of apples may be sitting too close to the ground, or your frozen meat might not have the blue stamps on it. Some meats require a licensed butcher/inspector, other meats do not, and it all varies with which town your in.]

Then we also have some townships passing 'food sovereignty' laws. Which I mentioned previously. That is where the state or federal government can get into the process to lock you up for marketing farm produce.



To me, this all applies to 'Best places to prepare for SHTF'. As our economy slides into chaos there are more and more people thinking about local-sourced food, as well as more people getting into small scale farming. If international shipping stops, or inter-state trucking stops; then you best have a local source of food. This is a SHTF topic. How you address it is different in each locality.

I see it come up each year. Whether they are looking at economic SHTF, or our health system falling apart [from the corporate take-over of our food via GMO and petro-chem synthetic 'foods'].

There are more and more people getting into this 'movement'. Some as consumers, some as producers, and as this is happening we are seeing 'regulatory' problems that stop many people from being able to simply sell their garden or farm produce themselves.



We make salt-corned pork [and chevron] and our customers have asked us to sell some of this to them. We have refused though because we are concerned about violating the regulations that may apply here.

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Old 04-30-2012, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,728 posts, read 5,169,956 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
I must admit, lots of good information in here. One thing I have to wonder about, though: If the best location is one away from big cities, away from a likely traveling route between big cities, and at least two tanks of gas away from ANY big city, that pretty much rules out most of the USA. Even one tank of gas for my truck, at 50-55 mph, is 750 miles. If I had to live 750 miles from the nearest major population center, it would seem as though far-interior Alaska would be the only American location that might fit the bill.
You can probably cut this in half -- folks still need to have enough gas to get back or to the next fuel source

Keep in mind that you use a lot more fuel with stop-start driving (in town and around abandoned vehicles/roadblocks) and off-road and/or 4WD than you do cruising on open paved highway. You also use more fuel if you have to climb a lot of hills. You also use more fuel if you are hauling or towing any kind of weight.

For example, 100 miles of our 176 mile trip to town is gravel, and the entire route is up-down-curves through the mountains. It takes an entire 30 gallon tank to make the roundtrip in our 3/4 ton V10 4WD Ram. If we're towing the trailer, we need to carry an extra 10 gallons. And, yes, the V10 might be a fuel hog, but it helps a LOT on the hills and off-road.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
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Basically where we live it is pretty much "don't ask, don't tell".

I can go to my neighbor and buy 1/2 of his butchered angus steer for $.99 a pound, no questions asked. My neighbors drop by and ask if we have any extra eggs, and we'll sell them or trade for produce. Mostly, though, we trade for whatever each other has - a neighbor keeps me in winter hay, I kept him and his family in beef and pork all winter. DH fixed a lawnmower and got a bushel of sweet corn. Yes, open and registered 'farmers' markets", grocery stores, and restaurants cannot use anything except produce certified by the FDA and bought from 'approved' sources and farms - but there are ways around that, too. We have FDA inspectors that wander thru about once a year - mostly they check the bills and ensure that the public places can verify that they bought their foodstuffs from approved sources. The rest of the year - well, we're too far out and it takes too long to get here from civilization and back for anyone to worry about what a handful of unimportant farmers and ranchers are eating. Besides, they might get caught in a blizzard or a tornado halfway here.

The wild open country, full of badgers and coons and coyotes and mountain lions, with no houses or lights visible for miles, terrifies most city folk. Which is just fine with us.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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We're pretty much "don't ask, don't tell" out here as well. Inspectors don't come out this way too often and they really only worry about the Roadhouse and the Trading Post. HOWEVER, the IRS can be a major problem if any one of you gets audited for any reason because you're supposed to report (and pay taxes on) the fair market value of any goods and services that you trade... if one of you goes down, anyone who traded under the table within the circle can get nailed. AND if you have even just one neighbor who is a flaming d-bag and reports any one of you to the State, USDA/FDA or IRS, then it could be inspections, audits and fines for all of you.

I'm not BS-ing, this actually happened to one of my best friends and old roommates... the IRS audited them and assessed their traded goods at some ungodly amount of "undeclared income", so they ended up paying a few thousand in back taxes and penalties; and then the IRS reported them to the USDA/FDA where they ended up owing even more penalties for operating an unlicensed facility and violating food safety regulations, and then the State decided to get in on the action and fined them even more for operating without a license and tax evasion. Total nightmare just for trading some meat, eggs and produce for some other goods and services within their own neighborhood. All it took was one family of "gimme's" who got ticked off that no one would give them anything and made a phone call to the IRS. Seriously, it was like some surreal small town agricultural version of a RICO crackdown

ETA: tricky licky legislators and judges have precedent to crackdown on the "informal economy" of benign and mutually supportive trade within communities because it is considered an underground economy. This type of informal economy is unreported and unrecorded, which violates the laws requiring reporting and recording, and are therefore illegal. If the trade included any regulated, restricted or prohibited good or service (say, like, raw milk) than it falls under the same "black market" classification as drug trafficking, gun running, prostitution and racketeering.
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Last edited by MissingAll4Seasons; 04-30-2012 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
612 posts, read 694,644 times
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Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons View Post
...For example, 100 miles of our 176 mile trip to town is gravel, and the entire route is up-down-curves through the mountains. It takes an entire 30 gallon tank to make the roundtrip in our 3/4 ton V10 4WD Ram. If we're towing the trailer, we need to carry an extra 10 gallons. And, yes, the V10 might be a fuel hog, but it helps a LOT on the hills and off-road.
Not to mention, I doubt your average city Prius could make it down those roads.

A lot of people in, say, NYC don't own a car, so they would have no way of getting out. The one's that do have a car aren't likely to have a large 4WD truck. I would think, if you own a decent sized plot of land with a small gravel road onto your property, the easiest way to prevent moochers is to destroy your road. Tear it up enough to block access to all but ATVs and worthy trucks / jeeps. Most "city slickers" wouldn't even notice a rutted, worn gravel road anyways.

Unfortunately, I'm not very "prepared" for much. We've got a stock of food in the house, that could last us about 2 weeks, and a few extra cans of gas (and my roommates little Subaru gets 40 mpg highway, so our gas is enough to get us around, or get us out).

In a few year's time, assuming S hasn't already HTF, I plan on building a house, with preparedness in mind. Personally, I wouldn't live in the middle of nowhere, away from civilization, trading with neighbors. I can easily see the logic behind such a life (and, honestly, you guys would be in the BEST position if total SHTF), but in the meantime, I like my amenities. When I've got the money to buy / build, I definitely plan to set up a garden / greenhouse, alternative energy systems (maybe even build off-grid), and more.
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