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when you mention the somme , there were actually more soldiers lost from the south than the north during that battle , both peoples fought together at that time
the ulster covenant did go against the british governments own plan for home rule , it was a pre emptive revolt , a promise to london that if home rule was granted , ulster unionists would embark on a terrorist campaign , with the help of bonar law , the government in london blinked , then WW 1 happened and many irish believed joining the fight would help achieve home rule , the irish leader in the commons at the time john redmond lost all his political power when the easter rising of 1916 happened
an eventful decade indeed , all changed utterly
You term it a 'terrorist ' campaign. There is no evidence of that being the case. In fact they were organized as an army with their own medical doctors and nurses. They had communication links including a motor-cycle corps. They were preparing to fight in open warfare.
I don't think the Irish were at the Somme in any large numbers. They were at Messines and an Orangeman went to the aid of Willie Redmond but he died. Redmond's family objected to him being buried where the British were and so he lies outside that graveyard about 20/30 feet away.
Yes it seems the Irish will opt for the more extreme people. Same happened here in the 30 year 'war' and even today they have rejected the non-violent nationalist party SDLP and voted instead for Sinn Fein/IRA who have killed over a 1,000 people (some of them their own )
You term it a 'terrorist ' campaign. There is no evidence of that being the case. In fact they were organized as an army with their own medical doctors and nurses. They had communication links including a motor-cycle corps. They were preparing to fight in open warfare.
I don't think the Irish were at the Somme in any large numbers. They were at Messines and an Orangeman went to the aid of Willie Redmond but he died. Redmond's family objected to him being buried where the British were and so he lies outside that graveyard about 20/30 feet away.
Yes it seems the Irish will opt for the more extreme people. Same happened here in the 30 year 'war' and even today they have rejected the non-violent nationalist party SDLP and voted instead for Sinn Fein/IRA who have killed over a 1,000 people (some of them their own )
the ulster covenant was a pre emptive move against home rule , a section of the population of ulster were pledging to use violence in opposition to a decision by the british government
the decision was never made but had it been and a campaign of violence ensued , what else would you call it ?
the ulster covenant was a pre emptive move against home rule , a section of the population of ulster were pledging to use violence in opposition to a decision by the british government
the decision was never made but had it been and a campaign of violence ensued , what else would you call it ?
Can't make it any clearer but apparently you have your mind made up. No way can you compare the two. Collins and his 'squad' murdered people. They didn't face them in open warfare. What Ulster would be engaged in would be similar to the American Civil War.
Can't make it any clearer but apparently you have your mind made up. No way can you compare the two. Collins and his 'squad' murdered people. They didn't face them in open warfare. What Ulster would be engaged in would be similar to the American Civil War.
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Originally Posted by Ulsterman
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No offense, but trying to portray the UVF as anything but a terrorist group would be akin to Irish_Bob calling the IRA choir boys. While some might have been as children, they strayed from the innocence of their childhood when they started to kill.
The UVF certainly have their share of ruthless killers.
I guess the question is (since you ventured down this road), would there have been more or less people dead had the British left all together, and the UVF and other Loyalist groups been the antagonists, instead of the other way around?
No offense, but trying to portray the UVF as anything but a terrorist group would be akin to Irish_Bob calling the IRA choir boys. While some might have been as children, they strayed from the innocence of their childhood when they started to kill.
The UVF certainly have their share of ruthless killers.
I guess the question is (since you ventured down this road), would there have been more or less people dead had the British left all together, and the UVF and other Loyalist groups been the antagonists, instead of the other way around?
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What terrorist acts did the UVF carry out prior to going to the Somme? They were organized as an army and unlike Collins did not have a murder gang which he called ' the squad'.
It could be equally said that had the Fenians, IRA etc not existed the people would have got along together. The IRA campaign of 1956-62 ended in defeat. Catholic and Protestant people got along together. Part of the reason for the failure of the IRA in 1956-62 was that the Catholic people never supported them.
What terrorist acts did the UVF carry out prior to going to the Somme? They were organized as an army and unlike Collins did not have a murder gang which he called ' the squad'.
I find it perplexing you give such a high minded and altruistic view of the UVF.
Army vs. gang is mostly semantics when you are talking about one side already in power with superior access to weapons/resources.
Then again, with members of the British forces among them, and collusion with the same, I can see where someone might attribute the term army to them.
Not to mention the blessing and tacit approval of the powers that be.
That is hardly a badge of honor most mainland British citizens would tout proudly.
Heck, I am sure Cromwell's methods were frowned upon by some, but he was perpetrating those acts against the perceived enemy, not the power structures own citizens.
One must honestly ask if he would be still held in high regard by modern Brits if he was carrying out those atrocities against England's populace?
Maybe the Scots would be ok with it.
Who knows, maybe some day people will want to tear down his statues like those who are doing so now in America based on a modern day perspective.
All one needs to do is look at what the UVF became, not what they may have originally set out to be. Even then, they were prepared to kill the "papists" to protect their power/privilege, right?
Also, they had their own "squads" flying a different flag, but were one in the same. Do the Red Hand Commandos ring any bells?
If memory serves me correctly, the UVF are responsible for the largest indiscriminate massacre of innocents during the troubles with the 4 Dublin/Monaghan bombings. Both without warning I might ad. Say what you will about the Provo IRA, but at least they gave warnings in most cases.
So your view if not being an outright apologist for the UVF is very
I find it perplexing you give such a high minded and altruistic view of the UVF.
Army vs. gang is mostly semantics when you are talking about one side already in power with superior access to weapons/resources.
Then again, with members of the British forces among them, and collusion with the same, I can see where someone might attribute the term army to them.
Not to mention the blessing and tacit approval of the powers that be.
That is hardly a badge of honor most mainland British citizens would tout proudly.
Heck, I am sure Cromwell's methods were frowned upon by some, but he was perpetrating those acts against the perceived enemy, not the power structures own citizens.
One must honestly ask if he would be still held in high regard by modern Brits if he was carrying out those atrocities against England's populace?
Maybe the Scots would be ok with it.
Who knows, maybe some day people will want to tear down his statues like those who are doing so now in America based on a modern day perspective.
All one needs to do is look at what the UVF became, not what they may have originally set out to be. Even then, they were prepared to kill the "papists" to protect their power/privilege, right?
Also, they had their own "squads" flying a different flag, but were one in the same. Do the Red Hand Commandos ring any bells?
If memory serves me correctly, the UVF are responsible for the largest indiscriminate massacre of innocents during the troubles with the 4 Dublin/Monaghan bombings. Both without warning I might ad. Say what you will about the Provo IRA, but at least they gave warnings in most cases.
So your view if not being an outright apologist for the UVF is very
Thanks for that. You have made it obviously clear where you stand and I know now where you are coming from. To equate the old UVF with the murder 'squads' of the IRA says it all. I will always defend the old UVF. They were honourable men who laid down their lives at the Somme and elsewhere. Some of my family was among them
The recent so-called 'UVF' took on that name. They had no connection whatsoever with the old UVF.
Power and privilege..wrong. What power had they got ? The power came from Dublin Castle and the people of Ulster had no say whatsoever. It was only when they were threatened that they bonded together and were prepared to fight to stay in the Union.
You keep moving the goal posts. I'm talking about the old UVF but you seem determined to bring up the more recent troubles and try to make a link between the old honourable UVF and a terrorist group calling themselves the UVF. Yes, your mask has slipped.
Thanks for that. You have made it obviously clear where you stand and I know now where you are coming from. To equate the old UVF with the murder 'squads' of the IRA says it all. I will always defend the old UVF. They were honourable men who laid down their lives at the Somme and elsewhere. Some of my family was among them
The recent so-called 'UVF' took on that name. They had no connection whatsoever with the old UVF.
Power and privilege..wrong. What power had they got ? The power came from Dublin Castle and the people of Ulster had no say whatsoever. It was only when they were threatened that they bonded together and were prepared to fight to stay in the Union.
You keep moving the goal posts. I'm talking about the old UVF but you seem determined to bring up the more recent troubles and try to make a link between the old honourable UVF and a terrorist group calling themselves the UVF. Yes, your mask has slipped.
My mask as you put it was never on, as I am forthright as I can be within this medium. Link something to me about the "old UVF" so I have something other than just your praise of them and a picture purported to be a bunch of nurses that were presumably part of some medical unit.
BTW - Many people on the other side of the spectrum say the old IRA or Fenian Brotherhood are not the same as the current Provo's, and certainly not the extreme splinter groups.
While that might be true, how often do people differentiate between what something was, vs. what it has morphed into?
My issue with some from your perspective is calling one side an army or the righteous side, while condemning the other side as terrorists.
The Irish (and/or IRA sympathizers) on the other hand do the same by calling them freedom fighters or an army, which is what their acronym stands for. To me you lose the distinction of being a freedom fighter if you target innocent victims.
Now I understand the Nationalists also felt the IRA was the only LE they could turn to, since the RUC/PSNI was a wolf in sheeps clothing.
But the tit for tat killings between Republicans and Loyalists removed any peace officer standing they may have had.
I never had to grow up in that type of environment, so it is hard for me to say who were the good and bad guys.
Much of this has been going on for well before either of us were born. Americans are sensitive to it, because our revolutionary founding fathers were called terrorists by the British. This was in no small part because they refused to engage in the battle tactics that the British had superior advantage in. So the position of the IRA supporters is likely the same. To me, that goes out the window when innocent civilians are intentionally targeted.
Targeting commanders, soldiers and even the police is one thing. When you start blowing up regular Joe, Mary & Johnny, that is something all together different.
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