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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
Peace & Bliss
It has a nice ring to it.
Lets face it my fellow American, we do live like that compared to the history of the English/British/Irish. As you pointed out longer than we have been a country this has been going on.
Americans can and should be proud of shedding the ancient grievances and prejudices of the past.
While there has been some Catholic bigotry in America (much of it from the likes of the Bowery Boys that were "nativists", which happened to be British and/or their descendants) we overcame it in short order.
BTW - I did not see where you backed English Dave back down on that, and instead used it to someone push back against me.
Have you ever, even once in this thread, pointed out a mistake on the British or Unionist side?
Or is that only reserved for the Irish side and those who are willing to point it out.
`
I have no idea if it is said that there were such signs in Great Britain and I doubt that you do either.
It wasn't just the Catholic Irish who were discriminated against in the US. As I've said, my immigrant grandfather's family was Catholic, from a Germanic area. Members of the family started drifting to the US prior to the US Civil War. They went to the less settled midwest. It was descendants of those people who offered a job to my great grandfather when the family's house burned. That doesn't mean that Catholics were readily accepted by 1904. I remember the anti-Catholic sentiment in the 60s.
I didn't write the articles or chronicle the history.
There are plenty of examples you can google for yourself. It certainly happened over here in America, and by the number of links (and sources like the BBC/Guardian) is seems as if it happened over in jolly old England as well.
Why you would call it an urban myth is strange. Sure I could see you claiming it was not widespread or the sentiments of most people in the UK. But to deny it even happened is straining credibility with so much evidence to the contrary.
`
Where is the evidence? You got a photo? Or even better a piece of film back then, with the landlady stood next to the sign. No modern photos designed to look old.......
They don't exist. If there is one, that doesn't make it 'commonplace' as stated in the article. That is a load of rubbish.
Back in the 50s and 60s, there were hundreds of bed and breakfasts in Blackpool. Still are today. Surely, such a photo would exist of such a sign, with a proud landlady showing it off?
It is an urban myth.
Sure it happened in America. Let's face it, you sure were a racist lot. My wife's mother told me what it was like for black soldiers here in England during the Second World War. She saw plenty of that hateful prejudice from white American soldiers, when black soldiers dared to dance with white British women.
Where is the evidence? You got a photo? Or even better a piece of film back then, with the landlady stood next to the sign. No modern photos designed to look old.......
They don't exist. If there is one, that doesn't make it 'commonplace' as stated in the article. That is a load of rubbish.
Back in the 50s and 60s, there were hundreds of bed and breakfasts in Blackpool. Still are today. Surely, such a photo would exist of such a sign, with a proud landlady showing it off?
It is an urban myth.
Sure it happened in America. Let's face it, you sure were a racist lot. My wife's mother told me what it was like for black soldiers here in England during the Second World War. She saw plenty of that hateful prejudice from white American soldiers, when black soldiers dared to dance with white British women.
So it happened in America, but not in England?
As to pictures, how on earth would I know if they were authentic or not?
If you Google the slogan in the image section, hundreds of photos pop up.
Some may very well be photo shopped/fake, but others look like they are from the time period. Then again back then how many people actually owned cameras other than the wealthy or newspapermen.
Maybe this guy along with others are lying as well;
More to the point, if Irish and/or Catholic bigotry exists today in NI and other parts of Britain, how can you possibly think it did not exist back when we all were more ignorant as human beings?
I also didn't want your earlier comment about America and slavery to pass without a challenge. Slaves were brought to the shores of the American continent well before we ever became a nation.
Britain was among the countries responsible.
So don't presume to saddle us with the responsibility for it after you dumped it in our lap initially. Our Founding Fathers could not form a nation and abolish slavery simultaneously. So they did the best they could to word our Constitution and Bill of Rights to move toward a more perfect union in the future.
After all we did fight a civil war over the issue.
As you have probably picked up reading my posts, I am not anti-British, but neither do I let them off the hook for past injustices. Every nation has it's flaws because we are a flawed species. But most of the western cultures have become enlightened compared with our ancestors. Yet vestiges of our negative past seem to survive if not flourish in certain pockets of the UK with regard to this subject.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
Peace & Bliss
It has a nice ring to it.
Lets face it my fellow American, we do live like that compared to the history of the English/British/Irish. As you pointed out longer than we have been a country this has been going on.
Americans can and should be proud of shedding the ancient grievances and prejudices of the past.
While there has been some Catholic bigotry in America (much of it from the likes of the Bowery Boys that were "nativists", which happened to be British and/or their descendants) we overcame it in short order.
BTW - I did not see where you backed English Dave back down on that, and instead used it to someone push back against me.
Have you ever, even once in this thread, pointed out a mistake on the British or Unionist side?
Or is that only reserved for the Irish side and those who are willing to point it out.
`
I have no idea of the truth about those signs in the UK. I do know about the situations in the US. You continue to contort things that I post. Dave does not. Why am I going to jump him about something that I know nothing about?
You, on the other hand, continue to misrepresent the US to paint a picture straight out of Home on the Range. . . Where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skys are not cloudy all day. . .
As to pictures, how on earth would I know if they were authentic or not?
If you Google the slogan in the image section, hundreds of photos pop up.
Some may very well be photo shopped/fake, but others look like they are from the time period. Then again back then how many people actually owned cameras other than the wealthy or newspapermen.
Maybe this guy along with others are lying as well;
More to the point, if Irish and/or Catholic bigotry exists today in NI and other parts of Britain, how can you possibly think it did not exist back when we all were more ignorant as human beings?
I also didn't want your earlier comment about America and slavery to pass without a challenge. Slaves were brought to the shores of the American continent well before we ever became a nation.
Britain was among the countries responsible.
So don't presume to saddle us with the responsibility for it after you dumped it in our lap initially. Our Founding Fathers could not form a nation and abolish slavery simultaneously. So they did the best they could to word our Constitution and Bill of Rights to move toward a more perfect union in the future.
After all we did fight a civil war over the issue.
As you have probably picked up reading my posts, I am not anti-British, but neither do I let them off the hook for past injustices. Every nation has it's flaws because we are a flawed species. But most of the western cultures have become enlightened compared with our ancestors. Yet vestiges of our negative past seem to survive if not flourish in certain pockets of the UK with regard to this subject.
`
Britain was among the countries responsible. Yes AMONG the countries. Why single it out ? I thought I read somewhere that Britain was the first country to finish with slavery. Did the early Americans and even later not have slaves ? So had Britain stopped slavery before America did ? The chip on the shoulder . Ah I think that sums it up
"No Irish Need Apply":
A Myth of Victimization Richard Jensen Retired Professor of History, University of Illinois, Chicago
''Hence the "chip on the shoulder" mentality that many observers and historians have noted''.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulsterman
Britain was among the countries responsible. Yes AMONG the countries. Why single it out ? I thought I read somewhere that Britain was the first country to finish with slavery. Did the early Americans and even later not have slaves ? So had Britain stopped slavery before America did ? The chip on the shoulder . Ah I think that sums it up
"No Irish Need Apply":
A Myth of Victimization Richard Jensen Retired Professor of History, University of Illinois, Chicago
''Hence the "chip on the shoulder" mentality that many observers and historians have noted''.
Ulsterman, the British had a role with the slavery in what became the US. When I was in school, every 3rd grader learned that the Dutch were heavily involved in the rum running and slavery circuit. (New Netherlands)
I have no idea of the truth about those signs in the UK. I do know about the situations in the US. You continue to contort things that I post. Dave does not. Why am I going to jump him about something that I know nothing about?
You, on the other hand, continue to misrepresent the US to paint a picture straight out of Home on the Range. . . Where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skys are not cloudy all day. . .
At the end of the day you must admit that in 2019 in America, we have kids of all religions going to school together with few problems. At worst there are some insults hurdled about, but religious issues (especially among fellow Christians) are almost non existent.
That of course cannot be said for NI, not even close. Most schools are segregated by denomination, and it is an us vs. them mentality among fellow Christians.
Middle school aged kids have been interviewed and asked about the kids on the other side of the peace walls, and it is depressing to hear what they have been brainwashed into believing. Though there are some signs of hope, in for example with schools like Hazelwood Primary. It is fully integrated with equal number of children of both denominations.
[It feels weird to even have to type such a thing with schools over here having all different types of religions getting along]
Yet hope is measured in microns over there when it is considered progress to leave gates open for a few hours per day in a public park that is walled off.
Growing up in segregation can only perpetuate more distrust and fear of those on the other side of the walls/gates.
Despite our different views on some things over here in America, I cannot imagine you would be apprehensive in sending your kids to a school that was of a different denomination. Heck some of the best parochial schools have kids of other faiths, much less denominations trying to get in.
Yet in NI, it would seem that most parents are content to raise their kids in segregated neighborhoods, schools, sports teams, etc.
Britain was among the countries responsible. Yes AMONG the countries. Why single it out ? I thought I read somewhere that Britain was the first country to finish with slavery. Did the early Americans and even later not have slaves ? So had Britain stopped slavery before America did ? The chip on the shoulder . Ah I think that sums it up
"No Irish Need Apply":
A Myth of Victimization Richard Jensen Retired Professor of History, University of Illinois, Chicago
''Hence the "chip on the shoulder" mentality that many observers and historians have noted''.
Ironically enough "my chip" if you will relates not to the British, and has more of an American political context.
The wealth redistribution scheme of reparations is just that, only cloaked in a identity politics angle.
So my thinking is if you want to hold someone responsible for it over a century and a half later, then don't ask fellow Americans to pay for it.
Instead, start with the original purveyors of it, such as Spain, Britain, the Dutch, etc.
As to the myth of discrimination of the Irish, why would you be invested in that?
Undoubtedly some Scots and/or Unionists who came to America and all "looked and sounded the same" also had trouble getting work or acceptance.
Granted if they were in NYC and could show they were distant cousins of the Bowery Boys, they would instantly get acceptance and a tall top hat.
The point being that few people doubt immigrants of any stripe struggled to establish themselves in a new country, whether it be the Poles, Italians, Irish, Germans, etc.
Those who immigrated from NI on your side of the divide must have encountered some as well, even if they did not identify as Irish.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
At the end of the day you must admit that in 2019 in America, we have kids of all religions going to school together with few problems. At worst there are some insults hurdled about, but religious issues (especially among fellow Christians) are almost non existent.
That of course cannot be said for NI, not even close. Most schools are segregated by denomination, and it is an us vs. them mentality among fellow Christians.
Middle school aged kids have been interviewed and asked about the kids on the other side of the peace walls, and it is depressing to hear what they have been brainwashed into believing. Though there are some signs of hope, in for example with schools like Hazelwood Primary. It is fully integrated with equal number of children of both denominations.
[It feels weird to even have to type such a thing with schools over here having all different types of religions getting along]
Yet hope is measured in microns over there when it is considered progress to leave gates open for a few hours per day in a public park that is walled off.
Growing up in segregation can only perpetuate more distrust and fear of those on the other side of the walls/gates.
Despite our different views on some things over here in America, I cannot imagine you would be apprehensive in sending your kids to a school that was of a different denomination. Heck some of the best parochial schools have kids of other faiths, much less denominations trying to get in.
Yet in NI, it would seem that most parents are content to raise their kids in segregated neighborhoods, schools, sports teams, etc.
`
I have heard hateful things from evangelical christians for decades.
I would send a child to a Quaker school without hesitation. Any other school tied to a religion would be vetted by me before sending a child. I don't think that I would consider an evangelical christian school because of things that I've heard said by members of that religion.
Ironically enough "my chip" if you will relates not to the British, and has more of an American political context.
The wealth redistribution scheme of reparations is just that, only cloaked in a identity politics angle.
So my thinking is if you want to hold someone responsible for it over a century and a half later, then don't ask fellow Americans to pay for it.
Instead, start with the original purveyors of it, such as Spain, Britain, the Dutch, etc.
As to the myth of discrimination of the Irish, why would you be invested in that?
Undoubtedly some Scots and/or Unionists who came to America and all "looked and sounded the same" also had trouble getting work or acceptance.
Granted if they were in NYC and could show they were distant cousins of the Bowery Boys, they would instantly get acceptance and a tall top hat.
The point being that few people doubt immigrants of any stripe struggled to establish themselves in a new country, whether it be the Poles, Italians, Irish, Germans, etc.
Those who immigrated from NI on your side of the divide must have encountered some as well, even if they did not identify as Irish.
`
In the Professor's article it does mention that French,Germans and I think Italians too etc had it hard but did not go into 'chip on the shoulder' mode. Living here we are used to hearing 'poor us' it its par for the course. They are not happy unless they are complaining.
Yes, the people from Ulster had it hard too but they got on with life. They were placed as a buffer between the Indians and the Puritans and many were killed by the Indians. However, they hit back and it wasn't very nice.
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