[arel]

A while ago, I read an article that said young people are leaving Vermont. I think it said they do it for economic reasons, as there are better economic opportunities elsewhere.

I think just about everyone who has posted anything negative about Vermont has complained about the economy, specifically the low wages and the high cost of living, including taxes.

The only other complaint I have heard is about the weather, specifically the long, cold winter.

Other than specifically personal reasons (college, a specific job, family needs, etc.), why do people choose to leave Vermont? And do people who leave tend to return? And, finally, if they return, do they return to Vermont because of its qualities or because it's home?

I realize these questions are extremely general and probably impossible to answer, but I'd appreciate any comments.

[vter]

I left Vermont after college. Having grown up here, I wanted to broaden my horizons and live in a real city. Most Vermont kids leave after HS or College. Why? Well, the reason I stated above and also because of the high cost of living, lack of high paying jobs etc.
Most of us return or try to anyway. I lived in Boston for six years and came back. Why? For the quality of life. I have a much more low paying job but I couldnt be happier to be back home.
For folks who come from someplace else (i.e. flatlanders), the ones that leave just experience culture shock and can't handle it, and or come up with stars in the eyes after reading to much Vermont Life (which doesnt depict life in Vermont at all!). When it's realized that life is not all milk & cookies up here, they leave. We just got done with hunting season and just like every year, there are a few letters to the editor saying "I just moved here from so & so and I'm offended that you put a picture of so & so with their 12 point buck". Hunting is a HUGE way of Vermont Life.
Just my 2 cents. Would love to hear what others say.

[harry chickpea]

I left because of lack of work and the climate. The year before I left there was about a two MONTH period in the winter when the sun didn't shine. I am 7th generation or more Vermonter by birth, delivered papers as a kid in -30 weather and blowing winds, and to make a long story short, my body never fully recovered from that abuse. The cold and lack of sun became physically painful to me, and I eventually learned that I could never live north of the Mason-Dixon line during the cold months. Vermont winters? Do you mean the season of constant darkness, dirty snow, and salt spray on the windshield? Or the months of denuded trees?

In other states I discovered that not all towns shut up shop at 5 PM and that lighting is more than a few poles in the middle of towns.

[arel]

Thank you for your replies.

The economy and the climate again.

I am thinking of moving to Brattleboro (from Brooklyn, NY) and this is daunting.

But New York is not an empire builder in the good climate department either.

What about Vermont snowbirds? Are there people who leave in the winter and then come back after mud season? (Yes, I know about mud season.)

Sometimes, I really yearn to be in northern New England, but then I am intimidated by the winters (especially the conditions on rural and inclined roads) and the bad economy. Others have said the winters are not so bad and are even getting warmer because of global warming. And people have said, in effect, not to worry about making a living. (I am a clinical social worker.)

Almost everyone I have spoken to in Brattleboro loves the area. But I have been told that the downside is the long, cold winters.

What is the salt spray from? The salting of the roads? Does it do damage to cars?

Re hunting: Like many flatlanders, I am repelled by hunting. Hurting or killing animals is not my idea of recreation. (I love animals, have 5 cats and still want to be a veterinarian when I grow up.) One summer, when I was vacationing with my family in New Hampshire, I tried fishing. I was so excited about catching my first fish, but eventually I began to feel uncomfortable about offering food to an animal with a hook hidden in it. It felt like concealing razors in apples given out on Halloween. Also, I have heard of people getting accidentally shot because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time during hunting season. But I am not vegetarian and I have been confronted on that when I complain about hunting.

I anticipate some culture shock, but I wonder if this should keep me in New York. I do love New York, though. But there is so much dirt, so much crime (in certain areas) and so much crowding. Just look at the New York, NY forum and see what some of the posts talk about. Just a few weeks ago, the deli I use was robbed. The guy at the counter was shot dead. The deli is 4 blocks away from my house, and I live in a relatively safe neighborhood. Oh, and on the morning of 9/11/01 I was in the subway in downtown Manhattan. As we approached the station near the World Trade Center, the conductor announced that we would not stop because of a "smoke condition".

[nhyrnut]

I left Vermont when Dean became Gov. the state was becoming more and more liberal. When he became gov and ppl where told what colors they can paint their house and looseing the freedoms they had on their own land. That just sucked. It was too bad I had to leave but it was for the better. Taxes in VT are very high. The old vermonters are conservative in all nature. I left for NH where we still have our freedoms and low taxes. But I still hunt in VT when ever I can. I have alot of family there and visit, just won't live there or work there. It is like Seattle Nice to visit but sucks to live there.

[vter]

To answer some of your questions:
Yes, there is a population of folks who move south for the winter. My grandparents used to do it when they were alive.
Salt is used to treat the roads. Salt melts the ice. The spray from the roads end up on your windshield and all over your car. You need to make sure that you have windshield fluid in your car at all times. Also, you should take your car to the carwash every couple weeks - get an undercarraige wash - to get the salt off as it can cause rusting.
Driving in snow & on hills. You'll have to get used to it if you want to live here. Unlike the cities, when it snows here, life goes on. You are expected to be at work. Schools only close if there is lots of snow or if there is icing. Schools maybe close 3-4 times per year on average I would guess. If you do move up here, after the first snowfall, find yourself a large, empty parking lot, and practice skidding, turning etc.
Hunting - It's your right to not like hunting - I don't like it either, but I respect it. Lots of my friends do it. You'll see pictures in the paper and you'll probably see some on folks cars during hunting season. The key to getting along with folks there, and this goes for anywhere, is to respect their beliefs/hobbies, even if you don't agree with it. Vermonters have historically had a "live and let live" attitude, but that slowly seems to be erroding away. Whether it's because of the influx of citified folk, who knows.
Harry it the nail on the head regarding winter. It's not the cold that bothers me, or the snow. It's the lack of sun. We can go days, even weeks without seeing sun. It's very gray here in the winter. When we get 2 or more days of sun, we all joke that the apocolypse is coming! Snow looks pretty when it first falls, but yup, it gets dirty and messy, especially in the spring.
Arel - is it all financially possible for you to come up here for 3 months or so to get a feel if this move would be right for you? Maybe come in March so you can get a feel for the end of winter, our very short spring, and the beginning of summer?

[leedspaddy]

Leaving VT? I can't bloody leave because I can't sell my bloody house.................I've said this before and I will say it again, VT is a beautiful state with no jobs and a high cost of living..............you have to retire here to beable to afford to live here

[nhyrnut]

Hey did you see the news? The property taxes are going up 7% in VT even though it was recomended that they lower them 2.5%. Now that is Liberals at their best. WOHOO LOOK MORE MONEY TO WASTE!!!!!

[arel]

Wll someone please clarify this thing about being told what color you can paint your house? I've seen reference to this in several posts (possibly from the same poster).

I remember once reading an article about Celebration, Florida, a town owned by the Disney corporation. Several (or more) families left because they were told things like what color curtains they could have in their windows.

When I briefly lived in White River Junction about 20 years ago, there was a man in my community, a homeowner, who complained about restrictions on his freedoms, I think regarding his house and what he could do with it.

What is this about?????

What intrusions and/or unreasonable restrictions are there for Vermont homeowners?

[vter]

The whole color of the house painting issue is way overexagerated (can't spell today) and yes, it's been by the same poster (who does not like VT one bit). In large home subdivisions, ACT 250 stipulates "earth tones" for the color of your home. If you live in a development with a homeowner's association (HOA), then yes, color may be regulated. Or, if you live in say, a historic district. This is par for the course for just about anywhere in the country. We built a new house 2 years ago and did not have to get a permit for the color of the house LOL. It's just in certain, particular, and not very common circumstances.
Vermont's ACT250 is the state's land use law. Some folks love it, some hate it. I like it for the fact that it's kept Vermont looking the way it looks, but don't like it because it does discourage growth, especially business growth which is what this state needs. Kind of a catch 22 for me!
Each town has their own set of zoning regulars, some stricter than others. Again, this is par for the course for just about anywhere in the country.
Celebration, FL is a completely different, but very interesting animal. Talk about HOA's gone mad!