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The thread is beginning to drift into a political flame war, which only serves those folks who get their jollies being angry and argumentative. Most civilized forums ban threads like that.
In an attempt to head that off, I'll point out that the extreme polarization between democrats and republicans is a relatively recent event, and that the democrats were once the conservative party, and that the whole labeling schtick does nothing but depersonalize and stereotype individuals. If you've ever been unfairly stereotyped, you'll know the desire to smack the perpetrator up the side of the head with an unflattering counter-stereotype. However, that isn't productive.
Most thinking people have complex views that don't always follow party lines. There have been a number of online tests to give folks a clearer view of where they stand in the political spectrum. You can find one fast current test to take at: http://www.okcupid.com/politics
You may find it refreshing to gain a little more understanding where you and your friends and acquaintances fit, and the ability to filter and tone down the rhetoric because you discover that you have points in common.
Yes, there have been a lot of extreme liberals that have moved into Vermont, but the average longtime Vermonter is a lot more likely to be pragmatic, closemouthed, and a centrist. Why? Tick off the conservative who plows your drive and you're likely to be snowbound. Tick off the liberal schoolteacher and your kid might end up suffering. When you live in a community where many residents have lived for generations, it pays to remember they have long memories.
The thread is beginning to drift into a political flame war, which only serves those folks who get their jollies being angry and argumentative. Most civilized forums ban threads like that.
In an attempt to head that off, I'll point out that the extreme polarization between democrats and republicans is a relatively recent event, and that the democrats were once the conservative party, and that the whole labeling schtick does nothing but depersonalize and stereotype individuals. If you've ever been unfairly stereotyped, you'll know the desire to smack the perpetrator up the side of the head with an unflattering counter-stereotype. However, that isn't productive.
Most thinking people have complex views that don't always follow party lines. There have been a number of online tests to give folks a clearer view of where they stand in the political spectrum. You can find one fast current test to take at: http://www.okcupid.com/politics
You may find it refreshing to gain a little more understanding where you and your friends and acquaintances fit, and the ability to filter and tone down the rhetoric because you discover that you have points in common.
Yes, there have been a lot of extreme liberals that have moved into Vermont, but the average longtime Vermonter is a lot more likely to be pragmatic, closemouthed, and a centrist. Why? Tick off the conservative who plows your drive and you're likely to be snowbound. Tick off the liberal schoolteacher and your kid might end up suffering. When you live in a community where many residents have lived for generations, it pays to remember they have long memories.
I completely disagree. I don't see the slightest hint of flaming, and unless I need to go back and reread the post I see nothing angry or argumentative. There is a diference between an open discussion and people trying to provoke an argument. I think we are being completely "civil" and any forum that would ban a thread of this ilk wouldn't be one I would want to be involved in anyway. I thought it was just a friendly discussion.
The thread is beginning to drift into a political flame war, which only serves those folks who get their jollies being angry and argumentative. Most civilized forums ban threads like that.
In an attempt to head that off, I'll point out that the extreme polarization between democrats and republicans is a relatively recent event, and that the democrats were once the conservative party, and that the whole labeling schtick does nothing but depersonalize and stereotype individuals. If you've ever been unfairly stereotyped, you'll know the desire to smack the perpetrator up the side of the head with an unflattering counter-stereotype. However, that isn't productive.
Most thinking people have complex views that don't always follow party lines. There have been a number of online tests to give folks a clearer view of where they stand in the political spectrum. You can find one fast current test to take at: http://www.okcupid.com/politics
You may find it refreshing to gain a little more understanding where you and your friends and acquaintances fit, and the ability to filter and tone down the rhetoric because you discover that you have points in common.
Yes, there have been a lot of extreme liberals that have moved into Vermont, but the average longtime Vermonter is a lot more likely to be pragmatic, closemouthed, and a centrist. Why? Tick off the conservative who plows your drive and you're likely to be snowbound. Tick off the liberal schoolteacher and your kid might end up suffering. When you live in a community where many residents have lived for generations, it pays to remember they have long memories.
I must Disagree as well. The question was is VT liberal well these people are just stating how liberal it is and how out of control it has become. People moving to VT defiantly need to know this. I know what you stated about Original Vermonters are conservative this is very true. But the Majority NOW is not so, Unfortunately for VT. LOL Anyway Nice Link most View me as a centrist. But this one said I was a Republican with a 33% Social Conservative and a 85% Economic Conservative. STRONG REPUBLICAN. LOL Must of come from my years in VT before the Dean area. Ya I moved when he got elected. Saw what was coming. LOL
The thread is beginning to drift into a political flame war, which only serves those folks who get their jollies being angry and argumentative. Most civilized forums ban threads like that.
In an attempt to head that off, I'll point out that the extreme polarization between democrats and republicans is a relatively recent event, and that the democrats were once the conservative party, and that the whole labeling schtick does nothing but depersonalize and stereotype individuals. If you've ever been unfairly stereotyped, you'll know the desire to smack the perpetrator up the side of the head with an unflattering counter-stereotype. However, that isn't productive.
Most thinking people have complex views that don't always follow party lines. There have been a number of online tests to give folks a clearer view of where they stand in the political spectrum. You can find one fast current test to take at: http://www.okcupid.com/politics
You may find it refreshing to gain a little more understanding where you and your friends and acquaintances fit, and the ability to filter and tone down the rhetoric because you discover that you have points in common.
Yes, there have been a lot of extreme liberals that have moved into Vermont, but the average longtime Vermonter is a lot more likely to be pragmatic, closemouthed, and a centrist. Why? Tick off the conservative who plows your drive and you're likely to be snowbound. Tick off the liberal schoolteacher and your kid might end up suffering. When you live in a community where many residents have lived for generations, it pays to remember they have long memories.
Since this posting came immediately after my previous post I will assume that much of this response was directed at me. I disagree that anything was said that was inflammatory. With the title of the subject being "Is Vermont Liberal", of course the commentary is going to be political.
Most people that are politically involved have a pretty good idea where they stand on the spectrum. For the record, I am a registered Independent, and as I stated earlier I am a Moderate with liberal leanings. I voted for Bush in 2000 and for Kerry in 2004. I am only giving my opinion on what I have seen in the 5 years that I have been in Vermont. I generally disagree with the people on the extreme left or extreme right.
I agree that the extreme polarization between the parties is a relatively recent phenomenon. Many people believe as recent as the 2000 election and I am inclined to agree with this assessment.
Talk about depersonalizing and stereotyping individuals..... for the record, the person that plows my driveway is extremely liberal, but a close friend. My wife is a 7th generation Vermonter as well a 15 year Vermont teacher and a registered Republican. Her and I have many political discussions and at least 50% of the time I disagree with her viewpoints.
People on the extreme left seem to have a hard time believing that anyone that disagrees with their viewpoints can be anything but a right wing radical neo-con.
Finally, I have no agenda one way or the other, I only am stating what I have seen in my time in Vermont and my perception of that.
LOL! I Remember the Dean Davis era, and my mind flipped to that when you mentioned the Dean era.
The real roots of political change in Vermont came, surprisingly enough, from the 1930s and the attempts by the conservative government of the time to promote travel to Vermont, once the first cement roads were built and auto travel became feasible. It worked all too well, with the wealthy from New York and Conn. looking on the state as a new playground. It was their offspring that tended to be a little left of center, and they were ones that began to settle in Vermont and have influence.
During the 1950s and 1960s, the bulk of the family farms and the milk market had largely died out, changing Vermonters' attitudes towards the conservative administration as well as where their income was coming from. Real Vermonters got a little more liberal once moved from the rock solid stones of the family farm (where they could pontificate in innocence and ignorance), and into the general workplace where they found that their bosses could make life miserable.
By the end of Dean Davis's tenure, the conservative side of Vermont had become more moribund and reactionary to the onslaught of "flatlanders" than helpful to the economy. Phil Hoff was thus able to get elected (1962? 1964?) as the first democrat in decades, and revive the economy.
The watershed event that tipped the scales forever was the unlikely anti-billboard law. There was sound economic reason to eliminate billboards in a tourist based economy, but it sent a signal to every anti-business, anti-development, pro-ecology, pro-strong government activist in the U.S.
Vermont was a place that had said "no" to business, "yes" to a beautiful landscape, and gotten away with it! The message was: Live in Vermont and avoid visual pollution and crowds. Have a strong influence in an area with a small population. Be independent and cantakerous. And while you are at it, push for more social services and less landowner control of the environment.
The Potash Brook and Southern Connector resistance are both recent indications that the arguments aren't between democrats and republicans in Vermont, as much as the anti-development crowd against people wanting growth, and the eco-nuts attempting to take over the government. Those mentalities are anything but "liberal" and I hate to see republicans suckered into calling it so.
FWIW, the poll put me closer to democrat than republican, and I don't think it has the rigor of the original poll that was funded, IIRC, by the libertarians, but it does point out at least the two social and economic dimensions to politics .
Addressing Spunky1, my comment was that I was noticing a drift of the thread towards standard political positions, not that anyone was out of line at this point. I've been on usenet and forums long enough to know the initial signs that can lead into flamefests. Taken individually, comments may be innocent, but they can have an accelerant effect once the speed of the responses increases.
A physician friend of ours moved to Vermont - when I asked him (as we have only been to Springfield, VT. for six months for business once) "is it as liberal as they say?" He said "NO DUH!" about as loudly as he could over the phone. He said he had thought he was liberal until he moved there - and he's from Connecticut! He was absolutely amazed at the weird people who had all the compassion in the world for criminals (definitely have odd judges and criminal justice system) but none when children are harmed or raped. Even when absolute EVIL can be going on in a town, he said, they close ranks and hide it. He thought it creepy and has already told his bosses that he is getting his family OUT of Brattleboro ASAP. Now, that is just his story, mind you.
My family moved to Vermont 7 years ago for a job transfer and we will finally escape this year. It is extremely liberal and socialist all in one. I disagree with the person who said there is no harrassment of those with conservative views. As a school teacher I have heard it all, and do not agree with a lot of the "liberal" norms allowed in the schools. Listen to Bernie Sanders a while, he is not considered "radical" here...he is revered!
You are indeed an endangered species here in Vt. Seems there are many more here as well and are dwelling on or actively taking steps to leave. Actually I have never lived in any other place where I have seen this sentiment to be so popular. I've been here two years and really like VT for it's natural setting, but cannot fathom being able to stay. I am a pretty tolerant person and can respect virtually any opinion, but following the agenda of this states legislature and the economic impact it has on it's population is very hard to watch. At least we live in a country where we can move to better provide for ourselves. It will be interesting to see in a decade who will reamain here to pay the tab and keep the lights on. I was hoping to get into teaching here, but after doing the research I know the stress level would not make for a rewarding experience.
I would have to say that Vermont is probably the most liberal state in the nation, even moreso than Massachusetts. After all, it prides itself on hiring a judicary that lets child molesters off with a slap on the wrist, won't save energy by investing in wind energy because the state is infested with pot smoking eco-nuts and loves to tax, tax, tax and spend our hard earn money. You have a better chance of finding Elvis alive than you have of ever getting a vermont liberal to listen to both sides of any political issue. I have to admit that I was shocked that when I came to this state that there was a republican governor but of course I soon found out that he was effectively a lame duck governor.
You are indeed an endangered species here in Vt. Seems there are many more here as well and are dwelling on or actively taking steps to leave. Actually I have never lived in any other place where I have seen this sentiment to be so popular. I've been here two years and really like VT for it's natural setting, but cannot fathom being able to stay. I am a pretty tolerant person and can respect virtually any opinion, but following the agenda of this states legislature and the economic impact it has on it's population is very hard to watch. At least we live in a country where we can move to better provide for ourselves. It will be interesting to see in a decade who will reamain here to pay the tab and keep the lights on. I was hoping to get into teaching here, but after doing the research I know the stress level would not make for a rewarding experience.
Flu89 I share your views completely.............People in this state are obsessed with keeping this state beautiful at all costs and if it continues there won't be anyone left to pay the tab except the eco-pot-smoking nuts. Two Examples which come to mind that typify the bizarre culture of this state were 2 separate news reports, one I saw on the local news last year and the other my wife told me about recently. The first was watching this woman have a panic attack because a propose wind farm that would be a couple of miles away from her property. She was complaining about that the wind farm would ruin her view. Hey that's all well and good if you want your view but don't b-i-t-c-h and complain when your electricity bills continue to rise. The other story was the state police complaining about the lack of cell phone towers in the state and that people were dieing becausae people couldn't report accidents etc because they had no cell phone signals. People were blocking these towers again because of the possible eyesore..........................so basically a vermonter puts their scenary first even if it means living in a cardboard box. Personally, I think all conservatives / republicans should leave Vermont because their vote and views including mine are a waste of effort. I love New england and despite the region being predominantly liberal I can put up with it but I can't take it in vermont.............so I'm sure I won't be the last to fall in love with vermont, move here, see it for what it really is and leave................I can't wait to get out
Location: Learnifying me some good at UMaine at Fort Kent
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My brother lives in Vermont and often refers to it as "The Socialist Republic of Vermont".
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