Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Then say they didn't grow up in the same situation, did they choose to do that too? Doubtful. If the experiences they went through lead them to homosexuality, isn't it just the cards they were dealt? How is THAT a choice? That's all I'm debating here.
I don't think you seem like a hateful person either, but you do seem a little closed-minded and because of that, I don't think you should be debating on a public forum. The first step to being fair-minded is having intellectual humility - the willingness to be persuaded. I don't know that you have that within you, at least not in this matter. I can appreciate the fact you have strong values and opinions, but just because you feel strongly doesn't make those different from you wrong. I'm sure you know that. An important question you should ask yourself is, "How does the love between two people have any effect on my life?" Chances are, whether those two people are gay or straight, the love they have for each other won't effect you. It's not as simple as a "very small percentage wanting special rights," it's more like a human being, albeit different than you but still a person, wanting to have the comfort and ability to be self expressive without worrying about what sort-of consequences may come from that. Being able to hold hands, kiss in public, go out with their partner, and publicly declare their love for each other (all things ANY straight person "inherently" has the luxury to do) without a fundamentalist, conservative, nay-sayer, etc telling them it's wrong because it's not "natural" or how it goes against "everything they've been taught." All in all, it's about allowing more love, that purely human phenomenon that makes everyone's world a better place, to be free-flowing and accepted no matter who it's between. It's human rights, not special rights. You say "to each his own" but I don't think you mean it.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you makes them close minded? LOLs.
ha ha ha... trust me sweetheart. You haven't seen me be hateful yet
Perhaps when you realize how insensitive your comments about how my orientation is a choice and blah dee blah blah.. Then maybe you'll realize. I have no problem with you being a Christian by the way, more power to you. Just don't expect your religious views to be the basis of law in this country.
Then why should you expect your gayness to be the basis of laws in WV?
And why all this hostility towards Christians.
I think that there may be the slightest possibility that at some point in the future you may be in a position to fire someone because of their Christianity. I am gonna write a letter to the state legislature and make sure they pass a law stating that no homos can fire a Christian. After all, we wouldn't want anyone to be treated unfairly. That is what the govt is all about. Making sure everyone is treated fairly. LOLS.
Who am I kidding? You go to Marshall. You obviously won't be in a position to fire anyone.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you makes them close minded? LOLs.
That's a gem.
No, that's not what makes that poster closed-minded, and never once did I say "Because you disagree with me, you're closed-minded." I said because that person lacks intellectual humility in this debate, that means he is closed-minded on this matter. I believe that because in his post he says anything that goes against "nature" or what the "natural" thing a person should do is is wrong while failing to realize that his definition of what is natural is not the only definition. Based on the posts I've replied to, he has shown he is unwilling to accept or tolerate opposing philosophies to his own. He is unreceptive to the idea that because a gay person goes against what his "mom and dad" taught him, or the fact the "men had wives and the boys had girlfriends" when he was growing up, that person isn't doing something wrong. There's a difference between being firm in your beliefs (which is fine!) and being SO firm you refuse to accept other's beliefs have the possibility of being truthful. That's what it means to lack intellectual humility in a moral debate, and the two posts of this person's I replied to show signs of that. Please go back an re-read the posts I'm referring to before laughing out loud at mine:
Here's the first one:
"I chose at an early age. I knew of no such thing as "straight" or "gay" when I was growing up. The men had wives and the boys had girl friends just like nature intended. To be any different goes against everything my Mom and Dad taught me and against the laws of nature."
And the second:
"If they grew up as I did in the same situation, I honestly think they'd be normal. To me, gay isn't normal. It goes against everything that is natural, everything I've ever been taught and I believe one does have a choice in the matter. Honestly, I'm not a hater. I've not called names or belittled anyone. To each his own but I don't like it when a very small percentage of the population wants to have special rights for something that in my opinion is wrong. We already have laws in place to protect workers. Where will it end?"
Then say they didn't grow up in the same situation, did they choose to do that too? Doubtful. If the experiences they went through lead them to homosexuality, isn't it just the cards they were dealt? How is THAT a choice? That's all I'm debating here.
I don't think you seem like a hateful person either, but you do seem a little closed-minded and because of that, I don't think you should be debating on a public forum. The first step to being fair-minded is having intellectual humility - the willingness to be persuaded. I don't know that you have that within you, at least not in this matter. I can appreciate the fact you have strong values and opinions, but just because you feel strongly doesn't make those different from you wrong. I'm sure you know that. An important question you should ask yourself is, "How does the love between two people have any effect on my life?" Chances are, whether those two people are gay or straight, the love they have for each other won't effect you. It's not as simple as a "very small percentage wanting special rights," it's more like a human being, albeit different than you but still a person, wanting to have the comfort and ability to be self expressive without worrying about what sort-of consequences may come from that. Being able to hold hands, kiss in public, go out with their partner, and publicly declare their love for each other (all things ANY straight person "inherently" has the luxury to do) without a fundamentalist, conservative, nay-sayer, etc telling them it's wrong because it's not "natural" or how it goes against "everything they've been taught." All in all, it's about allowing more love, that purely human phenomenon that makes everyone's world a better place, to be free-flowing and accepted no matter who it's between. It's human rights, not special rights. You say "to each his own" but I don't think you mean it.
I've read your post several times and I still stand unshaken in my beliefs. I didn't make the laws of nature but I believe in them and I choose to follow them. Others choose not to. You say I'm "close minded" and lacking "intellectual humility - the willingness to be persuaded" and because of that I shouldn't be debating on a public forum. You seem a little biased yourself. Are you gay? If I agree with everything you say, there would be no debating anything. Should you be debating on this forum?
I've read your post several times and I still stand unshaken in my beliefs. I didn't make the laws of nature but I believe in them and I choose to follow them. Others choose not to. You say I'm "close minded" and lacking "intellectual humility - the willingness to be persuaded" and because of that I shouldn't be debating on a public forum. You seem a little biased yourself. Are you gay? If I agree with everything you say, there would be no debating anything. Should you be debating on this forum?
"I've read your post several times and I still stand unshaken in my beliefs." - that sentence shows you may have more intellectual humility than I originally gave you credit for. If you read my argument and you find it is not sufficient enough to change your mind than there's nothing more I can do, but at least you gave it a chance (or several). It shows you are willing to be persuaded, however I just couldn't do it.
Laws of nature? I'm finding it hard to see how nature has much to do with human emotion, and because I don't want to get into a theological debate with you, I'll leave it at that. I find it to be natural that two people who love each other act on that love. If a man and a woman love each other, is it not natural they become intimate and engage in a relationship? I think we both agree it is. Well, it is entirely possible that a man can love another man just as much. Why isn't it natural that they act on their love for each other? The point is that the act of LOVE is what's important, not the gender of the lovers. Love can, and does, exist between two people of the same sex, or are you implying that gay love isn't real love?
If I have a bias, it's to all humanity. I do not favor homosexuals more than heterosexuals - I believe you should have your rights just as strongly as the gays you oppose, so yes, I do believe I should be debating here. I asked the question and I'm debating the answers you gave, trying to give you a different perspective. The reason I said you lack intellectual humility is because you didn't seem to want to hear any differing perspectives but yet participated on a public forum made for discussion. I'm sorry if I took your posts wrong, and I had no intention to offend.
I don't see how my sexuality has anything to do with it. My main argument is that LOVE should be accepted while the gender of the lovers ignored. The preservation of LOVE is what's important. I see no difference between two gay people's love and two straight people's love. Seeing two people in love makes my world a happier place. It's the most beautiful thing a human can do and I just don't get why people want to banish that. It makes no sense to me to have judgment against someone else's love, someone you don't know and are unaffected by.
Why do homosexuals keep pushing a political agenda under the guise of civil rights. It is after all a "sexual preference/orientation" is it not. Don't I have the right to object to acts that I consider disgusting. One of the men I admire greatly said judge me by the content of my heart, not my color. Applying that to homosexuals, I find most of them lacking in character, morality, and social conduct. My moral compass centers on a believe system that tells me to reject homosexuality on all levels as a viable life style, but at the same time to treat all of my breathern as I would want to be treated. I don't want homosexuals approval, I don't care one wit about what the gay community thinks about me, and I certainly don't need "civil rights" legislation to grant me special considerations, so why should a gay need any of those things from me. You alread have the native right to be as disguisting as you want to be, no new laws are needed.
Please allow me translate for those that don't speak WV:
I am a white person. I am homophobic. I am going to make some allusions to a "moral compass" so everyone can see what a self-righteous, God-fearing, right wing conservative I am. Gay people, whom i have never met, scare me because I have repressed sexual issues that my enormous ego refuses to allow me to deal with. Politically, I have all of the power and I see no reason to give any up.
I will never change because I don't want to. What i will do is: continue to hate those that are different than I am because I neither understand, nor desire to understand them. In truth, I hate more than just gay people; minorities, the homeless, and pretty much anyone else that doesn't fit into my nice little worldview are all the subject of my resentment. Secretly, I even those close to me that show compassion, understanding, and empathy toward those that different. Much of this stems from my racist upbringing (which I pat myself on the back for "overcoming") and my own desperate desire to fit in where I don't belong.
Truth be told, I hate myself,but I am unwilling to address the reasons why. So, I will continue to persecute people who are different to whatever degree is socially acceptable. I wish someone would come along and fix the decaying moral mess that this country has become...
CunningLinguist: I gave you points for your honesty. That's what these dialogs are all about anyway...honesty.
It's been a teaching tool for many throught the years.
Stay with us...everyone has mellowed and gained respect for members of this (our own little) community.
Been a lot of growth for everyone. As long as Truth exists, HOPE and Justice has a chance to prevail..
By your own definition you are being intellectually close-minded.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Please, allow me to translate...
