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What you fail to ignore is why the "1%" has accumulated all the wealth. Americans have been trying to maintain their standard of living with stagnant/declining wages. Same thing happened during the great depression. Debt/credit spending became the main driver of the GDP which essentially violated the principles of the free market. The rich got richer while the middle class loaded up on debt.
Howz that again?
'What you fail to ignore' is the reason for those stagnant/declining wages. And the reason the "1%" has accumulated all the wealth. They have bent the system to their will, and have turned the US Treasury upside-down and are shaking it like a piggy-bank. In doing so, they have dessicated our economy by locking up $trillions in bonds. They have rigged the tax system and ramped up corporate welfare (loopholes/credits/offshoring) to such extraordinary levels that it has nearly destroyed our economy. Because of early-2000's deregulation and massive overturn of tax laws.
Fully 100 percent of the nation’s 500 biggest corporations are dependent on various kinds of corporate welfare – subsidies, giveaways, bailouts, waivers, and other dazzling preferences – while many pay no tax at all on very substantial profits (see their familiar names - General Electric, Pepco, Verizon etc. - at http://www.ctj.org/pdf/notax2012.pdf).
How does that make you feel, andywire? Really.
They pay NO taxes on $billions in income? Mr. Romney doesn’t understand the double standard where government checks, whether already paid for or not, to people are called “entitlements”... while far bigger checks to corporations are called “incentives.” Romney has lost control of his self-consciousness. Here is a man who talks about 47 percent of American households paying no income taxes while he has refused, unlike his father, to release back years of tax returns because they’ll show he has parked much of his wealth and income in foreign tax havens like the Bahamas precisely in order to avoid paying U.S. taxes.
Indeed, as tax expert and former New York Times Pulitzer prize-winner David Cay Johnston said on Democracy Now, Romney has maneuvered the tax laws so that his five sons will continue to receive millions of tax-free dollars from their parents’ enormous pot of wealth.
How does that make you feel, andywire? Really.
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Originally Posted by andywire
Another problem is the housing market... Housing prices have always historically remained the same adjusted for inflation. For some reason or another, people started treating the housing market as an "investment". Housing took off for no reason whatsoever. The Demicraps also reduced regulations and encouraged a bubble in housing. Of course, you can't legislate prosperity, so it came crashing down, just like the credit/debt bubble.
Amusingly. the housing market is one that actually has behaved according to the market. The 1% have so much to lend that interest rates are at historic lows (just hit 3.48%!), with deregulation of lending that took off like a casino, and so housing prices took off. Of course un/underqualified people were getting massive loans and so the whole thing fell apart. This is an excellent example of the imbalances caused when laws are lifted, that were in place for very good reasons that we had learned through hard experience many years ago! But far-Rightists have forgotten or don't care about.
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Originally Posted by andywire
And why does Germany have such a high standard of living? Strong unions, backed by an export driven, rock solid manufacturing sector.
Well there you go. This is what I've been hollering in your ear all this time.
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Originally Posted by andywire
Nobody is suggesting the Republicans are perfect, but the other side of the table has plenty of dirt on their hands as well.
So you think I'm a Democrat. No they are almost as corporatist as Repuglicans. I'm a EuroSocialist.
'What you fail to ignore' is the reason for those stagnant/declining wages. And the reason the "1%" has accumulated all the wealth. They have bent the system to their will, and have turned the US Treasury upside-down and are shaking it like a piggy-bank. In doing so, they have dessicated our economy by locking up $trillions in bonds. They have rigged the tax system and ramped up corporate welfare (loopholes/credits/offshoring) to such extraordinary levels that it has nearly destroyed our economy. Because of early-2000's deregulation and massive overturn of tax laws.
I would blame the politicians 1st and foremost. Businesses will always do what is in their best interest. The politicians are supposed to be the ones looking out for businesses and the common citizen. This does not make the "1%" or the business community a parasite in of itself. You need job creators and a strong business community to sustain a viable economy. There is a reason politicians become significantly richer than their income should allow...
As for offshoring... American's had the choice. They saw the "buy union" commercials. They ignored them and went for the slave wage nation goods. The middle class made their beds. Business here have done what they had to to compete. Lower wages and highly automated processes which further reduced/eliminated jobs. Aside from that, we still remain competitive in a lot of highly skilled work. Like it or not, Americans will have to compete for the work that other nations can't do, just the way Germany did. That's also going to require a stronger educational system so the kids can actually compete with other 1st world nations... That is, if they would like a 1st world standard of living. It must be earned. That's also going to require a strong family unit. Something else that has been deteriorating. One must not discount the role that a strong social fabric plays in this equation. Take a look at our society and tell me how Americans have been performing in that department...
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Originally Posted by Quantum
Fully 100 percent of the nation’s 500 biggest corporations are dependent on various kinds of corporate welfare – subsidies, giveaways, bailouts, waivers, and other dazzling preferences – while many pay no tax at all on very substantial profits (see their familiar names - General Electric, Pepco, Verizon etc. - at http://www.ctj.org/pdf/notax2012.pdf).
How does that make you feel, andywire? Really.
How is it supposed to make me feel? However, I am not about to blame the business community. Your politicians are rotten to the core, and have sold the common man and women down the river, while laying waste to their children's future. In terms of the "gimmies", if you saw a $100 bill laying on the ground, would you pick it up? If the politicians are willing to give "freebies" to these corporations, why wouldn't they take them? Once again, blame your egghead politicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum
They pay NO taxes on $billions in income? Mr. Romney doesn’t understand the double standard where government checks, whether already paid for or not, to people are called “entitlements”... while far bigger checks to corporations are called “incentives.” Romney has lost control of his self-consciousness. Here is a man who talks about 47 percent of American households paying no income taxes while he has refused, unlike his father, to release back years of tax returns because they’ll show he has parked much of his wealth and income in foreign tax havens like the Bahamas precisely in order to avoid paying U.S. taxes.
Romney will be a tool, just like any politician. Just a tool for a different group. They all pander because that is unfortunately the requirement for a successful political career.
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Originally Posted by Quantum
Indeed, as tax expert and former New York Times Pulitzer prize-winner David Cay Johnston said on Democracy Now, Romney has maneuvered the tax laws so that his five sons will continue to receive millions of tax-free dollars from their parents’ enormous pot of wealth.
How does that make you feel, andywire? Really.
How exactly is it supposed to make me feel? He's not breaking the law by doing so, making it a mute point. Would you leave a $100 bill on the ground if you found it?
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Originally Posted by Quantum
Amusingly. the housing market is one that actually has behaved according to the market. The 1% have so much to lend that interest rates are at historic lows (just hit 3.48%!), with deregulation of lending that took off like a casino, and so housing prices took off. Of course un/underqualified people were getting massive loans and so the whole thing fell apart. This is an excellent example of the imbalances caused when laws are lifted, that were in place for very good reasons that we had learned through hard experience many years ago! But far-Rightists have forgotten or don't care about.
Dodd-Frank bill... Didn't know they were Republicans. They all have dirty hands. The point I was making was the housing market traditionally NEVER beats inflation. When it did, it proved to be unsustainable. That was a big part of the recession. Not the infamous "1%". As for the "far-right", there are no politicians representing their core values either. It's a matter of picking the turd that smells the least in any election.
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Originally Posted by Quantum
Well there you go. This is what I've been hollering in your ear all this time.
Unions are fine so long as they offer a good/service worth paying $30/hr for. To be able to pay unskilled laborers at GM $28/hr, you must be able to offer a product worth paying an unskilled laborer a $28/hr wage. As the old saying goes... Never by a GM car made on a Monday or a Friday. I drive a GM vehicle. For what they charge for a new one today, my next car will not be a GM product. Not at the going rate today. The unions simply have no bargaining power if they aren't producing a top quality product. Even unions can't violate the free market.
And the unions of Germany are quite different. Strong skilled trade unions producing highly skilled tradesman. Hence, they are capable of doing work that most companies around the world can't touch. It's very easy to pay an exceptional wage when there is very little competition in the work you are doing. You can charge whatever you want, and if the customer wants it bad enough, they will have to pay up. Unions don't equate to prosperity in of themselves. When you have unions in this country protecting sloth and incompetence first and foremost, instead of focusing on producing the highest quality skilled worker and product, it's easy to see why the model failed. The pendulum has swung.
At any rate, I know enough about unions in this country to know why they don't work. I was part of one. I also earn more working non union than I would if I belonged to one. They would basically be taking "some" outta my paycheck and giving it to the floor sweeper. Don't miss that game. There are good unions, and there are bad unions.
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Originally Posted by Quantum
So you think I'm a Democrat. No they are almost as corporatist as Repuglicans. I'm a EuroSocialist.
Great. See for yourself how that model is going. Europe is in chaos. Even Germany is feeling the pinch. Countries like Spain, which have all the wonderful labor regulations you love so are doing the worst. When you make it so difficult to run a business in the name of the worker (and their votes), you basically chase the productive class elsewhere. Sure, 3 months vacations and other generous social policies sound great. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. You have to be capable of producing enough wealth the afford such a luxury. Do you think America would be in better or worse shape if we had socialist policies like those Greece? Is it any wonder that Greece exports barely anything?
Dodd-Frank bill... Didn't know they were Republicans.
S/B called the Dodd/Countrywide greases Dodd's palm/Frank bill. Just like his dad, Dodd spent his last years exposed for the unethical tool he, and his dad, were.
And yes, in DC, we always have 537 crooks elected, with 11,000 lobbyists greasing their palms, and grossing on average, 300k each per year.
I would blame the politicians 1st and foremost. Businesses will always do what is in their best interest. The politicians are supposed to be the ones looking out for businesses and the common citizen. This does not make the "1%" or the business community a parasite in of itself. You need job creators and a strong business community to sustain a viable economy. There is a reason politicians become significantly richer than their income should allow...
Well 'business will do what they do', which means the pursuit of unlimited profit. What you can't see is that without laws business is free to BUY votes. No congressman can afford to not take money, when his competition IS. There used to be LAWS, and there aren't anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
As for offshoring... American's had the choice. They saw the "buy union" commercials. They ignored them and went for the slave wage nation goods. The middle class made their beds. Business here have done what they had to to compete. Lower wages and highly automated processes which further reduced/eliminated jobs. Aside from that, we still remain competitive in a lot of highly skilled work. Like it or not, Americans will have to compete for the work that other nations can't do, just the way Germany did. That's also going to require a stronger educational system so the kids can actually compete with other 1st world nations... That is, if they would like a 1st world standard of living. It must be earned. That's also going to require a strong family unit. Something else that has been deteriorating. One must not discount the role that a strong social fabric plays in this equation. Take a look at our society and tell me how Americans have been performing in that department...
Oh brother, you are heavily propagandized. No sense in discussing it with you, because all I would do is teach you and I wouldn't learn anything.
And in the process my IQ will go down a couple points...
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Romney will be a tool, just like any politician. Just a tool for a different group. They all pander because that is unfortunately the requirement for a successful political career.
Romney will not be a tool, because it is over for him.
Oh brother, you are heavily propagandized. No sense in discussing it with you, because all I would do is teach you and I wouldn't learn anything.
It's funny though, a mechanical programmer with only a certificate and a HS Diploma trying to school a college educated economist on politics and economics.
Well 'business will do what they do', which means the pursuit of unlimited profit. What you can't see is that without laws business is free to BUY votes. No congressman can afford to not take money, when his competition IS. There used to be LAWS, and there aren't anymore.
Just as investors will "do as they do" and workers will "do as they do". Would you recommend we place a cap on profits? Perhaps the state can confiscate the the wealth they create and redistribute it among the masses. Seems some in Europe like that idea, and the businesses decided it was best to go elsewhere.
As for the businesses... No business can afford not to play dirty when THEIR competition is. Just like no contractor can afford not to hire illegal laborers when their competition is. Just like no American manufacturer can afford not to outsource all their holiday trinket work to China when their competition is. Just like Americans can not afford to buy made in America products when no Americans are willing to pay more for made in America products. Perhaps you should invest more time finding out which came first, the chicken or the egg.
That's the economics of the time, and of America. Blame whoever you would like. I blame the politicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum
Oh brother, you are heavily propagandized. No sense in discussing it with you, because all I would do is teach you and I wouldn't learn anything.
And in the process my IQ will go down a couple points...
And when one can't counter with an intelligent argument, they come out swinging.... But I'll return the favor. I truly didn't know you could hit negative territory on the intelligence quotient test. Maybe that explains the inherent lack of success and the grudge you hold against "the 1%", or anyone who has achieved any level of success for that matter? Yes, they stole it from you, clearly that is the answer.
But yes, anyone who disagrees with your brand of propaganda is clearly brainwashed with propaganda.
Perhaps now you will again try to convince me I am unemployed? Maybe I was brainwashed into believing I am gainfully employed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum
Romney will not be a tool, because it is over for him.
That's what they said about Reagan when he was running against the peanut man. Fortunately, enough voters had a brain. Unfortunately, the leeches today are licking their chops at the idea of milking the productive class for all they are worth. The left wing media complex will do everything they can to run Romney through the mud. Thankfully, their ratings are in the tank because America is center right. Nobody pays attention to what a bunch of left wing radical "intellectuals" think because they see through their propaganda. And you realize "the onion" is satire, right?
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Originally Posted by 313Weather
It's funny though, a mechanical programmer with only a certificate and a HS Diploma trying to school a college educated economist on politics and economics.
Alas, my true fault is brought to light... The opportunity cost of attending a four year university would not justify quitting my job to satisfy such a prerequisite to hold an opinion according to you. Never mind I have tested into some of the best universities in the nation and could attend any time I choose. Your hero Ben Bernanke is a highly educated economist. Obummer too. Coulda fooled me.
But please, enlighten us as to what exactly a "mechanical programmer" is. Unless you have invented a brand new job, no such title exists.
What exactly qualifies you to have an opinion in such a case? Last I heard, you were both unemployed. Neither one of you are worth an opinion based on your logic. Hence, logical fail.
How exactly does one's skillset define the worthiness of their opinion, observation or explanation?
How exactly does one's skillset define the worthiness of their opinion, observation or explanation?
How would you react if someone who has absolutely no experience or education in mechanical programming beyond what they see on reality TV comes and tells you about mechanical programming as if they're experts?
I don't really care what the exact title is. You've made it clear that you became certified to program the machines at your job (Mechanical Programming, Machine Programming, whatever). You know what I mean, that's what matters.
Last edited by 313Weather; 09-20-2012 at 07:42 PM..
A few years ago, when the recession hit and the stock market fell below 7000, people were getting laid off and companies were closing. I was one of those casualties, losing my job in 2010.
From what I could tell, there were so many people looking for jobs, that employers could pay less for a more qualified worker. It still seems that way today. So then why is the stock market rising again? If people are still out of work, or taking jobs for less pay, then they have to be buying less. Does this effect the stock market at all?
I can't quite understand this whole thing - less jobs, less money for workers but stock market is rising and recession is over.
The problem of rewarding companies for outsourcing jobs has not been addressed (yeah, they get tax breaks). Slave wages and unregulated working conditions in other countries is seemingly impossible for corporations to resist. Legislation to stop these practices is being blocked in Congress by republicans.
Stock market trends are nothing more than an indication of the profitability of these corporations and has nothing to do with employment of Americans.
How would you react if someone who has absolutely no experience or education in mechanical programming beyond what they see on reality TV comes and tells you about mechanical programming as if they're experts?
I don't really care what the exact title is. You've made it clear that you became certified to program the machines at your job (Mechanical Programming). You know what I mean, that's what matters.
The poster you are talking about is not an economist. So what are you talking about? And you are very confused on what economics is. Economics is a theory. That's it. Like any theory, anyone is free to interpret it as they please. Some economists agree with ideas of Alexander Keynes, while others don't. It doesn't mean Keynes was right or wrong, because theories can't be proven right or wrong. If they were, they would cease being theories and transition into facts.
And there is nothing called mechanical programming. There is no certification with such a title. And there is no certification required for my job. You can either do it, or you can't. I was never taught to program anything through a certification program. That's what operator manuals are for... So you can teach yourself. If someone would like to discuss the details regarding my job with no experience, it would be very easy to disprove what they are saying, because I deal with facts, not theories.
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