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In general, they do. There are exceptions. Garbage pickup, for example. Problem is, a "garbage man" might as well be a taxi driver in today's "don't even have to get out of the truck" world. Taxi drivers don't make nearly as much as garbage men yet they do more; lifting heavy luggage around, etc. Explain that, I can't.
When I look at median incomes for the trades, they range from high 30k to high 40k - definitely better than unskilled laborers with H.S diplomas, easily *competitive* with many white collar jobs, but definitely not superior, as far as income is concerned.
Guys like Peter Thiel are putting their money where their mouth is by actually paying a select group of highly intelligent kids to NOT go to college... and they probably have something. The flip side to the coin is that in the world of the mediocre, a college degree is a huge foundation. Life is much easier as a mediocre college graduate than a mediocre high school dropout.
The discussion gets complex when you start examining the issue of unmarketable degrees held by people of low ambition versus, say, a highly ambitious person who enters the trades and bangs down $100K a year as a large city journeyman electrician. There are an awful lot of people with degrees in Studies-ology who would trade it in a heartbeat ("college experience" and all) for what that union plumber is making.
The current higher education ecosystem is driven almost entirely by government dollars and the soaring narrative of 'educating everyone' but really, getting them to sign on the dotted line and get those government dollars flowing. That kid has to live with that non-dischargable debt for the rest of their lives but all those professors and assistants and labs and stadiums, well, they don't come cheap, so they're perfectly willing to take in 100 IQ Average Andy, fix him up with a degree in "Communications" and send him into the world with a pat on the back not really caring what becomes of him, as long as the check clears. This was the unintended consequence of demanding that college not be an exclusive, but rather an inclusive, institution. The spigot of government cash, combined with the mantras of good intention, hurt- and continues to harm- a lot of kids who don't realize that 'college' in and of itself is a ticket to nothing.
The days of a college degree guaranteeing a degree with Anycorp doing some random functionary job, those days are gone. If your degree doesn't correlate to a realistic career path, the debt you incurred getting it will hurt much worse than whatever theoretical benefit you get from having it.
I tried having a major in Accounting when I was in college and after two courses that were so boring and incredibly complex, I dropped my plan for a degree in Accounting. I had also looked into a degree in one of the STEM areas but just looking at the text books in the bookstore put me to sleep. I could not picture myself reading those books for 8 hours a day so I could get a marketable major.
I'm a 4th year comp sci student. Trust me, I know how terrible comp sci can get, but you push through it if you actually want a job. you pay now or you pay later.
Guys like Peter Thiel are putting their money where their mouth is by actually paying a select group of highly intelligent kids to NOT go to college... and they probably have something. The flip side to the coin is that in the world of the mediocre, a college degree is a huge foundation. Life is much easier as a mediocre college graduate than a mediocre high school dropout.
The discussion gets complex when you start examining the issue of unmarketable degrees held by people of low ambition versus, say, a highly ambitious person who enters the trades and bangs down $100K a year as a large city journeyman electrician. There are an awful lot of people with degrees in Studies-ology who would trade it in a heartbeat ("college experience" and all) for what that union plumber is making.
The current higher education ecosystem is driven almost entirely by government dollars and the soaring narrative of 'educating everyone' but really, getting them to sign on the dotted line and get those government dollars flowing. That kid has to live with that non-dischargable debt for the rest of their lives but all those professors and assistants and labs and stadiums, well, they don't come cheap, so they're perfectly willing to take in 100 IQ Average Andy, fix him up with a degree in "Communications" and send him into the world with a pat on the back not really caring what becomes of him, as long as the check clears. This was the unintended consequence of demanding that college not be an exclusive, but rather an inclusive, institution. The spigot of government cash, combined with the mantras of good intention, hurt- and continues to harm- a lot of kids who don't realize that 'college' in and of itself is a ticket to nothing.
The days of a college degree guaranteeing a degree with Anycorp doing some random functionary job, those days are gone. If your degree doesn't correlate to a realistic career path, the debt you incurred getting it will hurt much worse than whatever theoretical benefit you get from having it.
Why a Nonprofit Backs Dropping Out of School - WSJ
"So far, 64 Thiel Fellows have started 67 for-profit ventures, raised $55.4 million in angel and venture funding, published two books, created 30 apps and 135 full-time jobs, and brought clean water and solar power to 6,000 Kenyans who needed it."
Let's do some math shall we? Each fellow was provided with 100,000 so that means 6.4 million dollars created 135 full time jobs a cost of 47k for each one resulting in 30 apps and some solar power and water. Angel capital is great but even years into this frankly there is not much.
I am sure he means well but frankly there are issues in assuming that someone with no formal education or training about business can be self taught and given a ton of money thinking it will work right.
People might bash trades and social sciences/liberal arts but frankly not all trades themselves go places. Much of them are dependent on government licenses so if the government relaxes the standards then that allows for more to enter the market. Any license is largely dictated by the state government. I can tell you that if licenses per state were dissolved wages for many trades would drop like a rock in the northeast. Since there is no assurance against that I would say it is risky. If you think they are not planning for some of this just consider the ultility. Who wants to become a teacher in Wyoming or North Dakota or Montana? I'm sure some do but not many. But if they all agreed to honor each others licenses then it would be more of a draw.
There are already better programs like the Social Impact House About Us
I am not attempt to advocate that someone must attend or take some given class to know how to run a business. However, in order to be taken a bit seriously by vendors, competitors and the industry as a whole you have to have something other then just a ton of capital. To these students the fellowship was free money so there is no real incentives to really use it wisely. What is Thiel going to do...fire them? Most businesses I know that do well largely because they had knowledge from academia, a family already connected in it or worked in something related to it. The entire tech sector is largely based on working for a firm and then leaving to another, very few startups outright have totally new people in everything. Steve Jobs worked at Atari, Trip Hawkins worked at EA and how many worked for the dot coms back in the day? I can tell you that when it is your own money you are much more apt to spend it wisely.
To go back a few posts I would say blue collar pays more then white collar...at first. But then there are limits to how much someone can make without a degree and how management is laid out. I have a friend who made great paid being a mechanic in his 20's only to be physically worn of it and sick of the limits of the union. He topped out in pay unless he went for a degree. Meanwhile ones I knew that went for their degrees eventually made more then him in pay and benefits. Heck I had a boss more then a decade ago that decided at age 40 to get back into construction! He better be the manager because I doubt he could be a foreman let alone laborer. I argue that unless you want to be the owner or manager of a business that blue collar eventually tops out and you can get physically worn. By that time the options can be limited without some form of education.
What I don't want to see, is someone complaining about making $40k/year out of college with a liberal arts degree when someone who has no degree but has tons of technical certifications and knowledge is over $100k/year offered at every interview. The wide split in money has nothing to do with whether you have a degree or not, it's the value of what you bring to the table.
The $100K/year without a degree but technical certifications is rather rare. Say that counts as some college, the average person makes under $1.5 million in their lifetime, compare that to associate degrees who make $1.5 million and bachelor degrees who make $2 million. Source: Don’t Kid Yourself: Education Affects Wages | Education and Careers
I think the thing is they were taught and beat into their heads that they would make 40K/50K right out of college and then come out and can't find anything better than 25K or most likely end up in jobs they had before and during college.
When I look at median incomes for the trades, they range from high 30k to high 40k - definitely better than unskilled laborers with H.S diplomas, easily *competitive* with many white collar jobs, but definitely not superior, as far as income is concerned.
Yeah, the only time I have seen them as superior as far as income is early career and I have a lot of friends that work in some of the highest paying blue collar professions (electric, linesman, etc.). They make good money, but I made almost as much as them as a full time intern. They are 30 now and are pretty much capped out as far as large amounts of salary growth goes and I am just getting to where the growth actually is.
I think the thing is they were taught and beat into their heads that they would make 40K/50K right out of college and then come out and can't find anything better than 25K or most likely end up in jobs they had before and during college.
But that IS what is happening at least in the northeast. Prices are high so wages are high. I'd argue that if you have a job that requires a bachelors in the northeast you have to be paying probably 37-43k in most professions.
Competition happens and sometimes you do have to pay more to have someone come in the door. Retirements happen, passing away happens, maturities/paternity leaves happen, people do move etc.
But that IS what is happening at least in the northeast. Prices are high so wages are high. I'd argue that if you have a job that requires a bachelors in the northeast you have to be paying probably 37-43k in most professions.
Competition happens and sometimes you do have to pay more to have someone come in the door. Retirements happen, passing away happens, maturities/paternity leaves happen, people do move etc.
Yeah in the northeast that is probably pretty accurate. But most other parts of the US 30-40k is more reasonable for people straight out of college. The Northeast and West coasts are just a different animal with very high COL areas.
But that IS what is happening at least in the northeast. Prices are high so wages are high. I'd argue that if you have a job that requires a bachelors in the northeast you have to be paying probably 37-43k in most professions.
As Mizzourah mentioned, it's more generalities than specifics. Just as I said with the high school grade with certifications MOST aren't going to be making 100K but some will. The issue is we are seeing in many cases 30-40K for entry level work if not 25K or less. Parts of the Northeast and California are different but most of America is not in these regions (I realize Cali is a state but it about takes up as much of the nation as the Northeast does) and do not see the same.
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I'm sure some do but not many. But if they all agreed to honor each others licenses then it would be more of a draw.
